Israeli Children Expendable?

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

>And you keep mentioning things people have said or even feel

>without citing them, which is just pissing in the

>wind--especially for those that feel the need to use more then

>one username and pretend they're not related...

Do a search here, my friend and you will find quotes here at length and links to the words of Mandela an Tutu equating zionism in Israel in Israel and apartheid in South Africa, Israeli/South African cooperation on WMD and the writings of the "new" Israeli historians about the expulsion of Palestinians in 1948. What you are seeing here is the age old zionist tactic of deny, deny, deny and when that fails scream anti-semitism. It is tired but oviously it still has some adherents and a few more gullible types like you who buy it.

Perhaps, you could point me to one of the posts that you feel convincingly refutes either of the three points above. What amazes me is that in the world of the Internet, and with the advent of google that the zionists have not changed tactics. Any fool with 10 seconds to spare can punch in "zionism" and "Mandela" or "tutu" or "apartheid", not to mention "WMD" and "south africa" or "benny morris" and "expulsion" and check for themselves if a simple search of the archives here seems too difficult.

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

>And Ethan, if, as the Israeli Historian Benny Morris and other

>modern Israeli historians admit, the Palestinians did not

>leave voluntarilly, should they have the right to vote in

>Israel?

you find ONE self-hating Jew and you think it is the word of allah?

even dealing with your hypothetical, NO, they shouldn't have the right to vote in israel.

>but I am curious whether

>you agree with him that children of refugees should lose their

>citizenship?

if the "refugees" chose to leave, yes.

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

>Hmmh, so you are saying that a Palestinian can by land on the

>western side of Jerusalem? BTW if wealthy Florida residents

>can buy land opn the Eastern side of Jerusalem, could Saudi

>King Fahd buy land on the eastern side of Jerusalem?

why do you question what i'm saying? why try to twist it? it is RIGHT THERE. what i posted IS WHAT I'M SAYING!

of the 6% of completely privately-owned land in Israel, there is no limit as to selling to arabs or Jews (or others).

>>i see no discrimination there. the arabs chose to leave

>after

>>choosing not to accept partition.

>

>But if they did not choose to leave but were expelled, would

>you then agree that the asymetric right of return constitutes

>discrimination?

no, because they weren't expelled. you can chant your hypothetical nonsense all you like.

>So I take it that you cannot suggest a principled distinction

>between the apartheid era Bantustans in South Africa, and the

>land proposals of Barak. At least we can agree about that.

i didn't make the proposal; barak did. if he wants to make prinicpled distinctions, he's welcome to do so. why don't you ask him?

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

>But one thing is for

>sure: they didn't flee because street signs weren't

>multi-lingual. (I don't know what the format for street signs

>was under the Mandate; I was never there and I was only two

>years old when it ended in 1948.)

i wasn't born for another 32 years, but i know the answer: the signs were in English and arabic.

RE: Truth Squad

And just to show that I'm not making things up, here's a photo of an Israeli road sign (if it posts properly:

http://www.unf.edu/classes/freshmancore/coreabroad/pictures/Jericho/jericho1.jpg

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

>you find ONE self-hating Jew and you think it is the word of

>allah?

So Benny Morris is a self-hating jew because he went though Israeli archives and demonstrated the efforts employed to expel the Palestinian Arab population?

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

>why do you question what i'm saying? why try to twist it? it

>is RIGHT THERE. what i posted IS WHAT I'M SAYING!

>of the 6% of completely privately-owned land in Israel, there

>is no limit as to selling to arabs or Jews (or others).

So can Arabs buy land on the west side of Jerusalem, yes or no?

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

>i wasn't born for another 32 years, but i know the answer: the

>signs were in English and arabic.

So are you saying that Likud did not remove Arabic street signs as a matter of government policy when Menachen Begin came to power, yes or no?

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

yes, provided that land is part of the 6% that is privately held. i'm pretty sure most of that land is state-owned though, so NO ONE can buy it.

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

i already answered that.

are you saying that the jordanians didn't remove Hebrew street signs and placards when they occupied east Jerusalem?

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

>It's

>notable, by the way, that the leading white opponents of

>apartheid in South Africa were mostly Jewish, just as there

>was also a disproportionately large number of Jewish

>supporters of the civil rights movement in the U.S. That's

>because racial discrimination/apartheid conflict with

>fundamental Jewish values.

The jewish participation in both the U.S. civil rights movement and the South African freedom struggle is much exagerated. At any rate, in post-apartheid South Africa jews are perhaps the most reactionary group around. It is not so much that they have changed as it is that ideas that make one a progressive limousine liberal under white minority rule are likely to put you on the right side of the Republican party under democratic government. Ditto for the rise of the jewish neo-cons in the U.S.

BTW nice try, Tri but you aren't suggesting that the anti-apartheid jews in South Africa were actually Israelis were you? If not, how on earth do the actions of a few jews who opposed apartheid somehow obsolve Israel for its acts in support of apartheid? I think your chronology of the Israeli/South African hook up is way off the mark. David Ben Gurion was explicit as early as the 1950s in expressing the need for Israel to side with the whites of South Africa to "protect" as he put it the post-war jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe. The African break with Israel occurred when Israel camew within steps of invading an African capital in 1967. Try as you like, Tri, you can't get around the fact that your beloved Israel walked in lock step and jack boot with apartheid South Africa to the eternal shame and embarssment of those whose ashes are burried at Aushewitz.

And it is you who wraps all jews in the Israeli flag, not I. I have regularly applauded those brave - self-hating jews as Ethan/Oren would say - like Benny Morris, Henry Siegman, Michael Lerner et al who dare to speak the truth about the racist, zionist apartheid militaristic theocracy that is Israel.

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

>yes, provided that land is part of the 6% that is privately

>held. i'm pretty sure most of that land is state-owned though,

>so NO ONE can buy it.

I think it will come as a big surprise to a lot of Palestinians that they can buy land in west Jerusalem. One of the big issues with the final status of Jerusalem has been that since 1967 Israel has continued to permit Jews to buy land in east Jerusalem while prohibiting Palestinians from buying land in west Jerusalem. The fact that you are too embarrassed to admit that here is perhaps a sign that you have a conscience after all.

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

>The jewish participation in both the U.S. civil rights

>movement and the South African freedom struggle is much

>exagerated.

can you cite any credible source to back that up?

isn't it odd that a Jew helped found the NAACP and until recently there was always a Jew on the board?

>At any rate, in post-apartheid South Africa jews

>are perhaps the most reactionary group around.

got a source for that?

>I think your chronology of the

>Israeli/South African hook up is way off the mark.

cool. got a source to back up your claim?

>David Ben

>Gurion was explicit as early as the 1950s in expressing the

>need for Israel to side with the whites of South Africa to

>"protect" as he put it the post-war jewish immigrants from

>Eastern Europe.

i'm no fan of ben gurion, but do you have a source for your paraphrased quotation?

didn't think so.

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

>I think it will come as a big surprise to a lot of

>Palestinians that they can buy land in west Jerusalem. One of

>the big issues with the final status of Jerusalem has been

>that since 1967 Israel has continued to permit Jews to buy

>land in east Jerusalem while prohibiting Palestinians from

>buying land in west Jerusalem. The fact that you are too

>embarrassed to admit that here is perhaps a sign that you have

>a conscience after all.

- NO ONE can buy state-owned or JNF-owned land.

- state-owned land can be leased to anyone--regardless of religion or ethnicity.

- JNF land is SUPPOSED to only be leased to Jews, but has, in fact, been leased to arabs and Bedouins.

- privately-owned land amounts to only 6% of the total land in Israel. that land can be sold to anyone.

those are the facts.

if you'd like to question whether there is ANY land available for purchase in W Jerusalem, that's a valid question. i don't work for the ILA, but i would guess that there isn't much, if any. most of the privately-held land (i believe, but this can be verified by someone else) is in the more sparsely-populated areas of the country.

i can give an honest answer; why can't you?

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

Oh, and for good measure, Auntie S, here's another picture of an Israeli road sign. This one is in Jerusalem. For the uninitiated among us, that's Hebrew, ARABIC and English writing on the signs!

http://www.multifoto.dk/photos/israel/jer_sign.jpg

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

>if you'd like to question whether there is ANY land available

>for purchase in W Jerusalem, that's a valid question. i don't

>work for the ILA, but i would guess that there isn't much, if

>any. most of the privately-held land (i believe, but this can

>be verified by someone else) is in the more sparsely-populated

>areas of the country.

Ethan, are you really that obtuse? The question is simple: can a Palestinian purchase a home in the west of Jerusalem? Can a jew sell a home to an Arab in west Jerusalem. And while we are at it, don't you find it a bit odd that in your secular, democratic paradise jews can purchase land in occupied Arab east Jerusalem, but Arabs cannot so much as buy a house in the east. I understand why you want to run from this, and I am enjoying the spectacle immensely.

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

>>David Ben

>>Gurion was explicit as early as the 1950s in expressing the

>>need for Israel to side with the whites of South Africa to

>>"protect" as he put it the post-war jewish immigrants from

>>Eastern Europe.

>

>i'm no fan of ben gurion, but do you have a source for your

>paraphrased quotation?

The quote from David Ben Gurion dates to around the time of the Sarpeville Massacre after which he sent Shimon Peres to lay a wreath at the Voortrekker monument, the Afrikanner landmark. Ben Gurion said: "If I have to choose between South Africa and Black Africa, I will choose South Africa 10 times out of 10." In this context, he went on to explain the Israeli mission of protecting jews where ever they are, and that this trumped all other concerns, including apartheid. Search the web or history books and you will find more. But we have played this game before, first you deny, then you demand sources, then you scream anti-semitism. It is rather amusing to watch you and Rabbi Trisexual try to explain away this little problem. It is a good sign that you are embarassed and ashamed by this as are your ancestors in Aushewitz.

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

>>At any rate, in post-apartheid South Africa jews

>>are perhaps the most reactionary group around.

>

>got a source for that?

Check out the voting patterns in the Western Cape, and the policies of the DP in South Africa. The Western Cape is the only province not to vote for the ANC, and the DP is today the successor of the old "Progressive" party of the likes of Helen Suzman, but which is today nothing more than the rump of the old National Party that governed under apartheid. Guess which party the overwhelming majority of your co-religionists vote for in the "new" South Africa? Why this should surprise anyone when jews are voting for Le Pen and the Front National and its equivalent in Holland and Switzerland is beyond me. And yes, I have posted those references here before.

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

you just don't understand land ownership laws in Israel.

arabs can--by law--lease a home in w Jerusalem. if the owners don't want to lease to an arab, the arab can seek redress for that discrimination in the courts.

NO ONE can buy or sell 94% of the land. why is that so difficult for you to comprehend? there is a difference between a purchase and a lease. but there is nothing in the LAW to prevent an arab from leasing--with the exception of the JNF-owned lands, which (according to JNF charter) should be leased only to Jews. (but even JNF lands have been leased to arabs--particularly Bedouins--on both short- and long-term bases).

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

>The quote from David Ben Gurion dates to around the time of

>the Sarpeville Massacre after which he sent Shimon Peres to

>lay a wreath at the Voortrekker monument, the Afrikanner

>landmark. Ben Gurion said: "If I have to choose between South

>Africa and Black Africa, I will choose South Africa 10 times

>out of 10." In this context, he went on to explain the

>Israeli mission of protecting jews where ever they are, and

>that this trumped all other concerns, including apartheid.

>Search the web or history books and you will find more.

you're the one using it: why can't you cite the source?

>But

>we have played this game before, first you deny, then you

>demand sources, then you scream anti-semitism.

i haven't denied that he said it at all. i'm simply asking you to give me the source from which you found it.

>It is rather

>amusing to watch you and Rabbi Trisexual try to explain away

>this little problem.

i'm not explaining it away. i don't see it as a problem.

>It is a good sign that you are

>embarassed and ashamed by this as are your ancestors in

>Aushewitz.

i'm not embarassed by it in the least and you know nothing of my ancestors. if you're going to use it so often, please learn to spell Auschwitz. if the german pains you, you're welcome to use polish: Oswiecim.

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

>arabs can--by law--lease a home in w Jerusalem. if the owners

>don't want to lease to an arab, the arab can seek redress for

>that discrimination in the courts.

>

>NO ONE can buy or sell 94% of the land. why is that so

>difficult for you to comprehend? there is a difference between

>a purchase and a lease. but there is nothing in the LAW to

>prevent an arab from leasing--with the exception of the

>JNF-owned lands, which (according to JNF charter) should be

>leased only to Jews. (but even JNF lands have been leased to

>arabs--particularly Bedouins--on both short- and long-term

>bases).

This is all very interesting, but let's see since 1967 the jewish population has increased greatly in Arab east Jerusalem, and the Arab population in west Jerusalem has declined. So how do you account for this? The failure of Israeli human rights laws? The failure of Israeli courts? Or perhaps there is something inherently discriminatory in saying that Arabs can't buy land in west Jerusalem, while permitting jews to buy land in east Jerusalem.

We haven't even got to the question yet of whether King Fahd could invest in real estate in occupied east Jerusalem on the same basis of a Florida-based shopping mall magnate.

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

>i'm not explaining it away. i don't see it as a problem.

....

>i'm not embarassed by it in the least and you know nothing of

>my ancestors.

QED

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

>Check out the voting patterns in the Western Cape, and the

>policies of the DP in South Africa. The Western Cape is the

>only province not to vote for the ANC, and the DP is today the

>successor of the old "Progressive" party of the likes of Helen

>Suzman, but which is today nothing more than the rump of the

>old National Party that governed under apartheid. Guess which

>party the overwhelming majority of your co-religionists vote

>for in the "new" South Africa? Why this should surprise

>anyone when jews are voting for Le Pen and the Front National

>and its equivalent in Holland and Switzerland is beyond me.

>And yes, I have posted those references here before.

super... since you're the one making the claim, i'll assume that you've found reputable sources. i'd be happy to check them out & then get back to you so that we can better discuss the matter. of course, if this is just your opinion, that's fine too. your opinion is perfectly valid. it may even be right. i'm simply trying to ascertain if we're dealing with fact or opinion here. are you able to point me toward official voting records or something? do voting records in SA list religion?

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

jews can't buy the land either.

leasing does NOT equal buying. until you can wrap your sandy little mind around that, i don't see how we can progress.

as to your king fahd question: i'll have to check with the ILA. there may be restrictions on ownership by foreign sovereigns. do you REALLY want me to find out, or are you simply desperate to make a rhetorical point? if it is not mere rhetoric, please explain how a saudi kind owning ANYTHING has any relevance whatsoever.

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

what is it you're trying to prove?