Israeli Children Expendable?

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

hooboy is going to allow this site to be used to promote terrorism? shame!

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

Are you implying that Jews never engaged in terrorism?

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

... or that Israel is guilty of state-terrorism?

It is truly amazing how some folks here have such a benign view of the Israeli occupation. One wonders how they would react if they were evicted from their homes to make room for someone else who the evictor dod not want to invite to stay in his own home. I suppose they would welcome the expeience, lay down and take it up the ass?

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

It's hard to know how gays would be treated if Palestine were not under occupation, but that said one should be careful about the word "gay" in cross-cultural discussions. From North Africa to Turkey to most of the Middle East to be gay means to suck and to be fucked. It probably is the case that it is more socially acceptable for a man to be sucked by, or to fuck another man in the Arab world than it is in Israel or the Western world.

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

For what it's worth, which is probably not much, I have to agree with your observations. It seems like every Arabic man, I have been with feels it is okay to get sucked and to fuck another man, if they aren't married, and to do so does not make him bi or gay, as the receiver is the gay one! No complaints by me, as it was definitely fun for me!

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

i'm not the one who threatened here publicly to blow something up.

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

Yeah, but there aren't enough foreign tourists to go around to satisfy every horny unmarried Arab, so some Arabs are also the suckers and/or fuckees (i.e., gay by their standard) and what can happen to such men anywhere in Arab world is no laughing matter.

Logic not being one of Auntie's strong points, he fails to explain any connection between the fact that Gaza and the West Bank are occupied and the treatment of gay people in "Palestine." It's really quite difficult to perceive any connection between the two matters. And it's notable that Auntie is wisely keeping thousands of miles between himself and his erstwhile countrymen to avoid their delightful folkways (i.e., murdering men thought to be gay). Yet he goes on defending the indefensible.

Just to highlight the differences (and Auntie's illogic), Brazil was under a rigid military dictatorship (with torture, disappearances, murder and the lot) for nearly 20 years, yet during that period gay life fluorished. In fact, it was during the years of the military dictatorship that the gay escort saunas were inaugurated. With their efficient spy networks, you can be sure the authorities knew of these places. Yet they've operated uninterruptedly for more than 30 years now (Brazil has returned to democracy, BTW). Even in Argentina, with its truly sick-o dictatorship and an arch-conservative Catholic hierarchy that openly supported the repression, torture and murder, gay life continued to exist (although not as exuberantly as in Brazil, by a long shot). But people weren't being murdered there for being gay, at least not by the authorities and not on a wholesale basis. On another continent, the gay rights movement got its start in Germany at the turn of the last century under the conservative, authoritarian and militaristic Bismarck government. So there doesn't seem to be a connection between those kinds of things and how gay people are treated. There must be another explanation, then, for the way gay people are treated in Palestine and other Arab countries. It just isn't possible to blame everything under the sun on the "occupation." Some things are intrinsic to Arab culture and society themselves, and until there's introspection and change of behavior, things will continue to be ugly for gay people in those countries long after the occupation is a dusty memory.

As for how Orthodox Judaism treats gay people, it certainly isn't very nice, and I wouldn't want to be gay and Orthodox. But it's no worse than the way Orthodox Christianity, Roman Catholicism, or fundamentalist Christian churches treat gay people. In none of those faith communities are gay people being killed and dragged through the streets, or being whipped and beheaded in public squares, which is the practice in some Arab countries, including the richest of them all, Saudi Arabia. So harping on Orthodox Judaism (a minority group in world-wide Judaism and in Israel itself, BTW) is just a smoke-screen by Auntie to divert attention from the suffering of gay people in the Islamic world. There's simply no comparison.

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

Strange how none of the Zionists anwered your question

RE: Multiple Personality Disorder

Oh, good grief, it's finally happened. Auntie's totally cracked. He's now talking to himself under his new aliases, "laverite" and "bedstuy!" There was also "charbroil" a few days ago, but that personality went back into hiding. One wonders how such a busy, jet-setting international lawyer can have so much time on his hands that he can sit around creating endless identities and spend such a staggering number of hours on an escort site peddling the Hamas/Hezbollah party line! I hope he isn't billing the Palestinian Authority for the time he spends on M4M!!!

RE: Multiple Personality Disorder

taylor, i can vouch for the fact that bedstuy and laverne/axebahia/ad rian/auntie s are not the same posters

RE: The Sound of one hand clapping in Brazil

As Peter Gabriel sang to great effect about another apartheid regime not so long ago:

"... you can blow out a candle, but you can't blow out a fire, once the flames begin to catch, the winds will blow them higher, oh BIKO, because of BIKO ... "

RE: Multiple Personality Disorder

ummmmmmmmm i never said he was!

RE: Multiple Personality Disorder

Really? How can you vouch for that?

RE: Multiple Personality Disorder

>i can vouch for the fact that bedstuy and

>laverne/axebahia/ad rian/auntie s are not the same posters

Really? How can you do that? Because the rhetoric and writing style are identical.

RE: Multiple Personality Disorder

i agree that in the arab world the man being fucked and the man doing the sucking are "gay" and the other man is not looked at as "gay"; however, since it takes two people to do these acts there must still be plenty of "gay" men in saudi arabia, etc. where non-muslims are scarce these "gays" must be muslim and are in danger if caught. the message coming from the arab world seems to be that being openly gay is punishable and a criminal act. in "palestine", this has nothing to do with the "occupation" but just a general reflection of the muslim culture. to blame it on the "occupation" is far fetched.

i read about palestinian gays seeking political refuge in israel on the grounds that they would be killed back home; israeli gay groups were bringing their case before the israeli courts; does anyone know how it turned out? gays are certainly accepted to a greater degree in israel than in any of the surrounding arab countries.

RE: Multiple Personality Disorder

>i agree that in the arab world the man being fucked and the

>man doing the sucking are "gay" and the other man is not

>looked at as "gay"; however, since it takes two people to do

>these acts there must still be plenty of "gay" men in saudi

>arabia, etc. where non-muslims are scarce these "gays" must be

>muslim and are in danger if caught.

That may be true, but the point that I think you have to acknowledge is that for the other half of that group, it is more socially accepted to be sucked or to fuck another man than in the western world or in your beloved Israel. In fact, the proportion of the population who regularly engages in such acts is probably far in excess of what you find elsewhere in countries with supposedly more "tolerant" or "permissive" attitudes towards gay sex. That is precisely why these kind of cross-cultural comparisons are frought with difficulty.

RE: Multiple Personality Disorder

Rabbi Trisexual, the great majority of nations and peoples of the world oppose the zionist colonial experiment in the heart of the Arab world. It is you who are in the minority, not I, and you who can only debate your critics by trying to silence them. Is it that you don't have the confidence of your convictions, or that you just lack convictions?!

RE: Multiple Personality Disorder

uh... I'll have you know that I have no idea who "Auntie" is and I am no onher than who I am on this board

Leave your conspiracy theories where they belong and let's get on with things.

Frankly that comment was rather inulsting and you should be ashamed of yourself.

A retraction would be appropriate.

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

does this mean there are any in Baghdad now? I mean, honestly, the first thing Tommy Franks should have done is erect some gay bars

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

WHO THE FUCK IS AUNTIE... PLEASE DIVULGE

I also get this feeling that there are those among us that are indulging in rampant fictitious screen names to further our party lines -- this really in abominable, and demeans the process.

While I might be new on this PARTICULAR board, I've already been contracted to verify if I'm "someone else" on another board.

Suffice to say, that is true. No harm done.

However, I find it quite interesting how the subject of this theread has been reduced to the amount of gay bars in the Middle East.

Then again, Israel claims to be a democracy so I guess anything can be said if its spun enough.

RE: Multiple Personality Disorder

trust my honey... no one writes like me

how can I prove it to you?

anyway, BEWARE knows me from elsewhee so simmer down and take a klonopin

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

blah blah blah blah... anyone seen the King David Hotel lately?

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

Where are there any in Port-au-Prince?

senseless tactic for devisiing foreign policy, not like Israel is really a democracy... more like apartheid

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

OK, I guess you aren't Auntie Semitic (aka ad rian, axebahia and now laverite). You must be her niece!

I rather suspect you've never been to Israel, and you've swallowed the Arab propaganda line whole. By any measure, Israel is a functioning democracy, even if it's not a perfect one by any means. There is a freely elected parliament (with no suggestion of electoral fraud). All citizens, including citizens of Arab ethnicity, have the vote (unlike apartheid South Africa, where only whites could vote) and can run for public office, and minority candidates have been elected. There are Arab members of parliament, and parliamentary debates can be conducted in Arabic as well as in Hebrew.

There is also a functioning independent judicial system that frequently reverses decisions of the government or laws passed by the Knesset as being in violation of Israel's basic laws (which are Israel's equivalent of a Constitution) or otherwise violate human rights.

None of these features exist in any Arab country, and only weakly in other Islamic nations, with the possible exception of Turkey.

And yes, the number of gay bars in a country CAN be a pretty good indicator of the human rights situation there. When contrasted to the situation anywhere else in the Middle East, Israel is a gay Garden of Eden. In Israel being gay isn't illegal; gays can serve openly in the government, military and security services; the rights of gays couples are being increasingly recognized and protected (as a result of judicial decisions); gays can congregate publicly in bars and saunas; they can march (by the thousands) for their rights on Gay Pride Day (even in heavily Orthodox Jerusalem), etc. There isn't a single Islamic country where that's the case. To the contrary, being openly gay in most of those countries is an invitation to imprisonment, torture and murder. And except for "Palestine," none of the Islamic countries is under occupation, so evidently the hideous treatment of gays in Islamic countries stems from something other than military occupation by a foreign power.

Could things be better in Israel, both in terms of its general democracy and its treatment of gays? Of course they could be! Are there real issues to discuss about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Of course there are. But it's hard to take seriously comments from anyone who calls Israel an apartheid state, or says it's not a democracy, or tries to equate the shabby behavior of the Orthodox towards gay people with the utter repression gays experience in the Arab world.

Fortunately, there are saner minds and voices elsewhere, like those that have worked out the latest Geneva proposals for a peace settlement. And once again, attempts are being made to get the the hard-line nut cases to get with the program. The U.S. administration is clearly leaning on Sharon (and his own public support within Israel is falling, thanks to his inability to provide peace, prosperity and security with his current insane policies) and the Egyptians are trying to pressure the Palestinian crazies to stop their terror campaign and give peace a chance.

One day, both sides will get so exhausted that they'll finally decide to try peace. When they do, they may find, to their shock and delight, that it's nice and that they actually like it! It's just a profound shame that so many people have had to die and be maimed because of so many years of meaningless, sterile posturing.

RE: Three Cheers for the UN!

>But it's

>hard to take seriously comments from anyone who calls Israel

>an apartheid state, or says it's not a democracy ....

Tell that to Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu, two recipients of the Nobel Peace Prize, both experienced with apartheid and both who say that Zionist Israel is indistinguishable from apartheid South Africa. And while you are at it Rabbi Trisexual, are the street signs in Israel in Arabic too? And do the Arab "residents" of the occcupied or annexed territories and the refugees in the camps have the right to vote on the same basis as the dual Israeli/U.S. "citizens" of New York and Florida?