Fahrenheit 9/11

Good take Hawk.

I haven't seen the movie, but will.

Having done some work in statistical research, it's well known that any results can be spun to make a point. Is there some truth to some of the information in this documentary? Very probably.

Is it all true? Very probably not, but if you make your judgments of Bush, this administration (or any administration) or American policy from just one source, you will be buying into the bias of that one source. Fox news, fair and balanced, but only one source.

Make an INFORMED judgment. Sample from the whole menu of opinion and use the INTERNET for one of it's best assets; research.

Very good point Hawk.

VAHawk:

I feel it only right to warn you that apparently some moron has taken over your screen name and is posting willy-nilly at this website.

That said, let's examine how ludicrous this current post is, point by point.

>>I finally saw F911 today. My only question is, why isn't

>>there any kind of out cry from the public damnading the

>>impeachment and removal of Bush and his cabinet?

>

>Because, so FAR there is NOTHING that can be used as grounds

>for impeachment? It there was, don't you think that the

>Democrats would have used such grounds, and done just that?

Factually incorrect. As a matter of fact, John Dean has made a very good case for impeachment, and I suspect he knows a bit about it. The real issue as to why Bush hasn't been impeached is simple: the Republicans control both houses of Congress, and won't allow an impeachment proceeding to see the light of day.

>

>>But now people everywhere know who and what

>>Bush is. He is a criminal, he is a murderer and he is a

>liar.

>

>No, he so far has not been PROVED to be a criminal, and he is

>no more of a "murderer" than ANY OTHER president who advanced

>his political agenda!

Amazing how you tell us how much you despise Dubya, but in this post you seem to be his ardent defender? More evidence to support my theory that a moron has hijacked your screen name.

>

>Is the fact that he is a "liar" so eye opening an experience

>for you? Aren't MOST politicians, especially on the national

>level liars, and less than "moral"? How in the HELL do you

>think they were able to get to the national level, otherwise?

Very trite and boring. Everybody says this, so it must be true. How about some original thinking?

>

>

>Sorry to burst your pretty pink bubble, but they are ALL liars

>and will sell out their integrity to make it to Senator much

>less President! Can't deal with that? Then, Please go play

>with your Barbie dolls in their pretty little pink Corvettes!

Barbie dolls with pink Corvettes? My, aren't we clever!

>>For the record, during the credits, people aplauded the work

>>of Mr. Moore. We laughed together, we cried together and

>some

>>of the people walked out with a new understanding of what

>the

>>Republican party is really all about. It's all about money

>to

>>them. It doesn't matter to them if our sons and daughters

>(Or

>>in our cases, nieces and nephews) die to yield a few extra

>>million bucks for the conservative party supporters. It

>>doesn't matter to them that Iraqi innocent citizens are

>being

>>killed, imprisoned and abused. Only money matters to them.

>

>Are you 10 years old? It took a movie of spliced together,

>"out of context", statements and interviews skewered to

>portray that VERY FACT for you to realize the truth? Where

>have you been living your life, so far, under a rock?

>Perhaps, if you spent 1/10 of the effort to read

>about/understand the history of the world and the politics

>that drive it, as you spend on hedonisitic pursuits, you

>wouldn't need such a "contrived" movie to educate you!

Did you actually see the movie, or are you just reading from the latest Republican talking points memo?

>>I honestly think Iraq was a better place before the Bushes.

>>Yes, they had a dictator and yes he was often abusive to his

>>people. But at least they were all alive. Now thousands have

>>died and for what???

>

>Yeah, you really think so? Did the movie show the recently

>dug up mass grave of 300,000 Iraqi citizens who were massacred

>by Saddam Hussein?, most of whom were annhilated during

>previous administrations, both Republican and Democratic? Did

>the Clinton, Bush I, and Reagan administrations turn a "blind

>eye" to such atrocities and violation of human rights, for any

>kind of political policy?

Cite a source for your mass grave of 300,000 Iraqi citizens dug up by whoever.......sounds like the kind of hyperbole one would find in the American Spectator magazine. I'm not questioning the fact that Saddam was genocidal. You might just pause and think about who made some of his nefarious activities possible (particularly when we were very pissed off with the Iranians.)

>

>

>I only wonder at the naivete of people who CAN'T read, CAN'T

>think for themselves without some propaganisitic movie to

>guide their thoughts. If the movie portrayed Bush as the

>SAVIOR of the Christian world and all that is PURE, I'd bet

>you would be singing a different song! WAKE UP! and read the

>facts, and form at least a semi-intelligent opinion based on

>such pursuits.

You claim to be college educated and yet you use words that don't even exist ("propaganisitic", a case in point)? I could be wrong, maybe you didn't claim to be college educated. Maybe you just said you have a degree........like one of those mail order types.

>Cite a source for your mass grave of 300,000 Iraqi citizens

>dug up by whoever.......sounds like the kind of hyperbole one

>would find in the American Spectator magazine.

Oh, look - I didn't know that Saddam Hussein's lawyer posted on this Board, but apparently he does.

I love how every single possible conspiracy theory that some fat pig with a camera can dream up against Geroge Bush is blindly and obediently accepted as true by Saddam-loving leftists, but when it comes to their hero and new victim, Saddam Hussein - whom not even the French Government denies was one of the most psycopathic and murderous dictators of the 20th Century -- these same people express outrage if they think an accusation is levied against him without sufficiently dispositive proof.

Why not just come out and admit that you think that George Bush is a far worse and far more dangerous criminal than Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden? It's quite clear that this is the view of most of the drooling hate-mongers posting in this thread.

And the idea that Iraq was better off under Saddam is too morally depraved to even merit comment.

I'm not

>questioning the fact that Saddam was genocidal. You might

>just pause and think about who made some of his nefarious

>activities possible (particularly when we were very pissed off

>with the Iranians.)

LOL! Yes, as always . . . "and if Saddam DID do bad things, it's the fault of the United States."

>You claim to be college educated and yet you use words that

>don't even exist ("propaganisitic", a case in point)? I could

>be wrong, maybe you didn't claim to be college educated.

>Maybe you just said you have a degree........like one of those

>mail order types.

How funny that the very same person, "Bucky," who uses someone's mistakes in English (or, more stupidly, their typos) as a weapon to prove lack of intelligence is the same person who authored this grammatical atrocity:

>Cite a source for your mass grave of 300,000 Iraqi citizens

>dug up by whoever......"

That's "by whomever," "Bucky," not "by whoever." The word "who" is used only as a subject. When it's used as a direct obejct (as in "send it to whom?" or "For whom the bell tolls"), then the correct word is "whom." "Who" is the subject. "Whom" is the direct object. That's Grammar 101.

How funny - and just - that in every single post where you resort to the basest and most desperate Internet message board tactic of using other posters' spelling or grammar errors as a weapon, you are plagued by the most basic illiteracies when doing so.

>Cite a source for your mass grave of 300,000 Iraqi citizens

>dug up by whoever.......

I understood perfectly what you meant by the ellipsis (that's "....." for the non-college educated) but for the sake of those less knowledgeable about correct usage, it would have been better to write "by whoever you claim did it." That would make it clear that "whoever" is not the object of the preposition "by," but the subject of the prepositional phrase "whoever...did it."

>>Cite a source for your mass grave of 300,000 Iraqi citizens

>>dug up by whoever......"

>

>That's "by whomever," "Bucky," not "by whoever." The

>word "who" is used only as a subject. When it's used as a

>direct obejct (as in "send it to whom?" or "For whom the bell

>tolls"), then the correct word is "whom." "Who" is the

>subject. "Whom" is the direct object. That's Grammar 101.

>

>How funny - and just - that in every single post where you

>resort to the basest and most desperate Internet message board

>tactic of using other posters' spelling or grammar errors as a

>weapon, you are plagued by the most basic illiteracies when

>doing so.

>

Doogie, I'm so glad you took the bait! I knew you would. Of course, I hate to take take you away from licking Dubya's ass to have you think you need to defend your backwoods pal VAHawk. I can understand that you would ignore the fact that VAHawk makes up words, and focus on something else, since you have a penchant for doing the same thing. At least in your case, it is most likely your lack of spelling or typing ability. VAHawk is just like Dubya........he makes it up as he goes along!

As to the Dubya/Saddam/Osama comparison, I guess it depends on what standard of measurement you're using. Using the simple standard of how many people have died as a result of their actions, it is my opinion that it would stack up like this:

1. Saddam

2. Dubya

3. Osama

Hmmmmm.... Where to begin????

In response to your reply to my post on this string, this movie did not open my eyes to the way business is done in DC. In fact I am a former Top Aide to a Lead politician there. I spent 6 years in that world and yes, previous administrations have done some questionable things. But This administration is the first to steal a presidential election. For the first time, we have gone to war solely for the financial gain of a President and his close allies. Also for the first time, a president and some members of his cabinet are link directly to terrorists who then launched the largest attacked on our nation. Nothing about the circumstances we now find ourselves in is business as ussual.

While F9/11 was indeed a Democratic Infomercial, it none the less was entirely true. Oddly, for the first time, middle America got a glimpse of what really happens when the wrong people come into power. I wish that this would mean that finally America would start voting on the things that count such as a candidate's history and his/her positions and policies. However, I fear it is much more likely that we as a country will continue to vote for the most charismatic and charming candidate.

However, I fear it is much more likely that we as a

>country will continue to vote for the most charismatic and

>charming candidate.

Are you suggesting that The Dyslexic Dolt is charismatic and and charming??

>Are you suggesting that The Dyslexic Dolt is charismatic and

>and charming??

Never, ever confuse campaign abilities with anything else. Bush has surrounded himself with people able to run fearsome campaigns.

--EBG

"Doogie, I'm so glad you took the bait! I knew you would. Of course, I hate to take take you away from licking Dubya's ass to have you think you need to defend your backwoods pal VAHawk. I can understand that you would ignore the fact that VAHawk makes up words, and focus on something else, since you have a penchant for doing the same thing. At least in your case, it is most likely your lack of spelling or typing ability. VAHawk is just like Dubya........he makes it up as he goes along!"

LMFAO! As if you were even one pinkie's worth level of cleverness to DRAW Dou69 into biting on your "shriveled, shrunken up, dried out old worm"! Edited [/font color]

Hey, I made a DAMN typo, but EVEN if I DID take liberties and coin a new word, at least that is in compliance with English as a living, growing entity of linguistics! Of course, I'm sure you advocate the usage of a DEAD language such as Latin, as it suits your DEAD brain!

Yeah, I'm DEFINITELY a backwoods, white trailer park, "aw shucks" kind of Ozark Mountain Beverly Hillbilly! I was born and lived in "white middle class America" 15 miles south of the nation's capital, and DUH! I did indeed graduate cum laude from the University of Virginia, a university that was founded and preaches democracy and the basic human right of men ala its founder Thomas Jefferson! Ever heard of Master Tom?

I can't think of anyone who is more liberal than me, but even so, I DON'T let such feelings obfuscate the facts, nor let them turn me into some kind of BLINDLY hateful, party spewing ignoramous such as yourself!

To your type, facts DON'T MATTER, unless they reinforce your HOLIER than thou opinions, and when the facts DON'T do so, those who point out that fact, are "white trailer park trash, ignorant backwoods shits, drunk on booze, high on drugs, or psychotics missing their meds!" Please excuse me if I forgot to mention any of the cliches that your type resorts to when you can't DISPUTE the facts!

I DON'T like GWB, didn't vote for him, and won't vote for him in November. I will state right now that I DON'T like Republicans! That is mostly due to the fact that most of them are rich, white men who advocate the further enrichment of themselves at the expense of the average, middle class American! I hate them as such, MOSTLY for their economic policies! As such, GWB, FALLS WAY SHORT of what I want as a president!

That DOESN'T mean that I support any of their international policies, nor advocate the LUDICROUS charges against them as criminals!

I don't support the war in Iraq, nor TRY to justify the current administration's reasons for engaging in that war! But engaging in such, DOESN'T make GWB ANY MORE of a criminal than Johnson/Nixon/Kennedy/Eisenhower/Truman were for involving the U. S. in Korea and Vietnam! Did you DEMAND their impeachment?

Of course, those administrations DID NOT have to deal with the THREATS and out and out ATTACKS on U. S. soil that the current Bush administration has had to deal with, so who knows what they WOULD have done in response! The FDR response to one such attack on Pearl Harbor was to round up all Japanese Americans, confiscate their properties, and imprison them in barbed wire concentration camps!

I believe he was a Democrat? I believe he is HELD in HIGH esteem in American history?

"Doogie, I'm so glad you took the bait! I knew you would. Of course, I hate to take take you away from licking Dubya's ass"

Gee, "take take"! Must be one of those double entendres, huh?

"Factually incorrect. As a matter of fact, John Dean has made a very good case for impeachment, and I suspect he knows a bit about it."

JESUS F. CHRIST! You are trotting out the biggest "deep throating/back stabbing" cocksucker in U.S. political history, John Dean, to make a point?

Tell me again, what JD knows about the current Bush administration, that would lend any credence, whatsoever, for him to advocate impeachment of GWB? I'm SURE he HAS to be in the inner circle of the GOP!

Wasn't it bad enough that the nellie assed, pussy lipped, closeted, cocksucking prick, spread LIES that helped oust Nixon from office? NOW there was a move that TRULY benefitted this country! Exchanging ONE of the BEST presidents this country EVER had for "no harm, no foul" Ford! x(

I really LIKED Nixon, and he is the ONLY Republican I have EVER voted for on any political level!

>

>I really LIKED Nixon, and he is the ONLY Republican I have

>EVER voted for on any political level!

Why am I not surprised.....the criminal types have always been to your liking.

>Hey, I made a DAMN typo, but EVEN if I DID take liberties and

>coin a new word, at least that is in compliance with English

>as a living, growing entity of linguistics! Of course, I'm

>sure you advocate the usage of a DEAD language such as Latin,

>as it suits your DEAD brain!

VADumbass: A "typo" is when you inadvertently type one or two wrong letters.....not a totally new non-existent word. That's one of the little penchants you share with your hero Dubya.

>

>Yeah, I'm DEFINITELY a backwoods, white trailer park, "aw

>shucks" kind of Ozark Mountain Beverly Hillbilly! I was born

>and lived in "white middle class America" 15 miles south of

>the nation's capital, and DUH! I did indeed graduate cum laude

>from the University of Virginia, a university that was founded

>and preaches democracy and the basic human right of men ala

>its founder Thomas Jefferson! Ever heard of Master Tom?

I guess spellling wasn't in the University of Virginia curriculum. Seriously though, I doubt you went to school there, anyway. Come on, 'fess up, you majored in goat blowing at Bug Fuck Community College.

>

>I can't think of anyone who is more liberal than me, but even

>so, I DON'T let such feelings obfuscate the facts, nor let

>them turn me into some kind of BLINDLY hateful, party spewing

>ignoramous such as yourself!

You should really get out more......folks who adhere to the political philosophy of David Duke (that means you) aren't considered "liberal".

>

>To your type, facts DON'T MATTER, unless they reinforce your

>HOLIER than thou opinions, and when the facts DON'T do so,

>those who point out that fact, are "white trailer park trash,

>ignorant backwoods shits, drunk on booze, high on drugs, or

>psychotics missing their meds!" Please excuse me if I forgot

>to mention any of the cliches that your type resorts to when

>you can't DISPUTE the facts!

Edited [/font color]

>

>

>I don't support the war in Iraq, nor TRY to justify the

>current administration's reasons for engaging in that war!

>But engaging in such, DOESN'T make GWB ANY MORE of a criminal

>than Johnson/Nixon/Kennedy/Eisenhower/Truman were for

>involving the U. S. in Korea and Vietnam! Did you DEMAND

>their impeachment?

Let's see now.....I wasn't born when Truman was president, I was a child when Eisenhower was, I was ten years old when Kennedy was assassinated, fifteen when Johnson left office and Nixon took over. Nixon's second term was during my undergraduate years, and yes, I clamored for the criminal bastard to be impeached. He was a criminal, just as Dubya is a criminal. In fact, Dubya should have been tried, convicted, and executed for going AWOL during wartime. You don't like it? I'm glad.

>

>Of course, those administrations DID NOT have to deal with the

>THREATS and out and out ATTACKS on U. S. soil that the current

>Bush administration has had to deal with, so who knows what

>they WOULD have done in response! The FDR response to one such

>attack on Pearl Harbor was to round up all Japanese Americans,

>confiscate their properties, and imprison them in barbed wire

>concentration camps!

>

>I believe he was a Democrat? I believe he is HELD in HIGH

>esteem in American history?

Edited [/font color]

Rounding up the Japanese-Americans during WWII was a moral disgrace. Not one of FDR's brightest moments, but then, I never said it was. You raised that isssue, and it has nothing to do with Dubya's criminality.

I had a chance to watch Michael Moore's new documentary earlier this evening. Quite a lot of the information that the documentary covered I had already known. Certain pieces clarified matters for me. The one aspect of the documentary that I found to be quite touching was when Mr Moore were interviewing different soldiers and civilians about their feelings on the invasion of Iraq. What stands out for the most was one particular lady named Lila who told Mr Moore that she has supported every war in her lifetime. She was very proud of the family heritage, as she explained that every generation in her family had a member serving in the armed forces since the second world war. Now her life has changed, her oldest son was serving in Iraq and he had sent his parents a hand written letter telling his mom how much he missed home and he had mixed feelings about being in Iraq.

Five days later after they had received the letter, the mom gets a phone call from the local army base. There was a helicopter patrol over Fallujah, fairly routine, somehow an Iraqi militia man on the ground fired a rocket and it hit the helicopter, causing the craft to explode. The craft crashed into the ground and killing everyone on board. They never had a chance, Lila's son happend to be part of that patrol. When Mr Moore interviewed her, she was hurting very badly, she was crying and visibly upset. She questioned why her son was taken away from her family. When I was watching this, it made me swell up and I can't even imagine how hard this has to be for her and all the other families who have lost loved ones in Iraq. The only solace Lila got was by visiting Washington D.C and being able to walk down 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and just stare at the White House. She even got into an argument with a passer by who felt that Lila wasn't the only person who was affected by the war in Iraq. It made Lila angry and quite rightly so.

I'm not a parent and I can't even begin to comprehend what it must be like for a mom and dad to to receive news that their son or daughter was killed in action serving their country in a time of war. I don't know how a person can cope with this tragedy. For a person like Lila and many others out there who have lost loved ones in Iraq regardless of whether one supports the war or is against the war. That level of pain has to be horrifying to a point of no end. For parents to outlive their own children, it's too much. When I was watching this, it definitely touched my heart. I hope there is a ray of sunlight for the victims loved ones.

Rohale

RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 - Fallout

Las Vegas casino boots singer Linda Ronstadt after performance

-

Monday, July 19, 2004

(07-19) 11:24 PDT LAS VEGAS (AP) --

Singer Linda Ronstadt not only got booed, she got the boot after lauding

filmmaker Michael Moore and his new movie, Fahrenheit 9/11 during a

performance at the Aladdin hotel-casino.

Before singing "Desperado" for an encore Saturday night, the 58-year-old

rocker called Moore a "great American patriot" and "someone who is

spreading the truth." She also encouraged everybody to see the documentary

about President Bush.

Ronstadt's comments drew loud boos and some of the 4,500 people in

attendance stormed out of the theater. People also tore down concert

posters and tossed cocktails into the air.

"It was a very ugly scene," Aladdin President Bill Timmins told The

Associated Press. "She praised him and all of a sudden all bedlam broke

loose."

Timmins, who is British and was watching the show, decided Ronstadt had to

go -- for good. Timmins said he didn't allow Ronstadt back in her luxury

suite and she was escorted off the property.

Ronstadt's antics "spoiled a wonderful evening for our guests and we had

to do something about it," Timmins said.

Timmins said it was the first time he sent a performer packing.

"As long as I'm here, she's not going to play," Timmins said.

Ronstadt had been booked to play the Aladdin for only one show.

Calls to Ronstadt's manager were not immediately returned.

In an interview with the Las Vegas Review-Journal before the show,

Ronstadt said "I keep hoping that if I'm annoying enough to them, they

won't hire me back."

Looks like she got her wish.