Hello

RE: Right wing conservatives

>First, I think it's so funny and revealing how you just skip

>over all the parts about how liberal closeted gay men do so

>much harm to gay people, and want instead to talk only about

>conservatives.

Now that we’ve completely hijacked the new guy’s thread…an unsolicited opinion from the moderate left.

The whole issue of coming out isn’t a conservative versus liberal issue and I agree wholeheartedly with Doug on this one. An out, ultraconservative, rightwing Log Cabin boy does much more good for the political agenda of the gay rights movement than any closeted liberal Democrat who is “passing.” At least the Log Cabin boy is helping to educate straight America that gays really do come in all flavors.

I don’t think that quietly closeted people do as much harm as Doug seems to believe, but I think it goes without saying that they contribute absolutely nothing to the acceptance of gays. How can they? They are transparent so they can’t possibly impact anyone’s opinion or feelings about gay people.

Everyone has to make a personal decision about coming out and everyone has the right to stay in the closet if that is what they need. However, they don’t have the right to have their cake and eat it to. It would be nice if closeted people accepted the choice they are making and simply owned up to the fact that they are benefiting from, but not contributing to, the progress being made by the gay community.

Whether they own the consequences of their choice is really not important to me. They can think or say whatever they want because they are transparent to the outside world and can’t impact our progress.

Although it irks me when a closeted person criticizes the behavior of the activists who are out there trying to change things, it is basically irrelevant because of their transparency. After all, who hears the criticism except other gay people? However, a closet case who would join straight people in criticizing the activists is worse than a hypocrite and such treacherous behavior should be reviled by our whole community. We should not be expected to tolerate Roy Cohn types and they should be outed at every opportunity.

RE: Right wing conservatives

>Everyone has to make a personal decision about coming out and

>everyone has the right to stay in the closet if that is what

>they need. However, they don’t have the right to have their

>cake and eat it to.

WHAT CAKE? How is someone who is closeted benefiting from what out and active gays are doing?

VDN

RE: Right wing conservatives

This is one of those full-of-shit posts wherein the poster mentions all kinds of poll results without once mentioning a real poll. I'm a very proud and outspoken liberal and my life is an open book to all who matter to me. I love America, apple pie, my mothe..., well my grandmother and most of all my boyfriend. I don't hire escorts these days but only because I am in a monogamous relationship. Be careful, acuna, you can gag on all the shit farmed out here.

RE: Right wing conservatives

>WHAT CAKE? How is someone who is closeted benefiting from

>what out and active gays are doing?

The cake is NOT owning up to the fact that closet cases benefit from the work of the activists and have little right to criticize their efforts.

Just the most recent examples. Did closet cases contribute to the Supreme Court’s decision on sodomy laws? Are closet cases contributing to the challenge of marriage restrictions?

Not to put words in YOUR mouth, but the response from a typical closet case would probably be along the lines of, “The sodomy laws are irrelevant to me because I’m secretive about who I fuck. The marriage laws are irrelevant to me because I have NO intention of ever marrying someone of the same sex.” But that’s bullshit. These changes eliminate witch hunts and afford choices that benefit all gay people whether they are completely out or buried in the deepest closet.

>Greetings Doug (who I respectfully agree to disagree with),

Oh, that's nice. I love respectful disagreement. Let's see if you live up to the praise you heap on yourself.

>You seem to be driven by polls. Much like anything else in

>the world of statistics we all must be leary of polls. Was

>this a mailer poll sent to Nazi's for Queers or Log Cabin

>Gays?

"A poll sent to Nazi's for Queers or Log Cabin Gays" - Gosh, that doesn't sound so respectful, now does it?

And the poll I was referencing was one that was published about 7 days ago on the front page of this right-wing fascist rag called The New York Times. This poll was discussed in virtually every publication in the country and on every political talk show on television and radio. I can't imagine how any literate adult didn't hear of it. Do you read much?

The poll was a comprehensive survey of attitudes regarding gay people generally and gay marriage specifically. What it demonstrated - like many other polls have and like common sense would in any event reveal - is that, far and away, the least bigoted and most supportive attitudes toward gay people are found among those citizens who know gay people.

In other words, the strongest act one can take, by far, to combat anti-gay bigotry is to live openly as a gay person. The most destructive and pitiful act is to live ashamed and in the closet.

>I don't need a poll to know that family acceptance is one of

>the biggest needs of acceptance that many people have. I

>think most individuals can deal with the stupidity of public

>opinion (individuals aren't stupid but "people" are) but

>"coming out" is hard to do when you realize your family may

>react in such an adverse way that you may be alone after all

>is said and done.

It may be "hard to do" - but it's also courageous and achieves great good for gay people. And those who are too cowardly and scared to do it have absolutely no business criticizing those gay people who have done it.

>LOL LOL LOL LOL - The gay community DOES NOT offer escorts!

>That's capitalism ... a force stronger then anything we are

>discussing here. Please name me ONE gay activist who fought

>so hard for US to get a good private!

Yes - prostitution has always existed. But an open, easy-to-access diversity of gay escorts, where you can read about them online and in magazines and exchange opinions about them with other gay men and meet them in bars and restaurants rather than hiding in bathrooms exists only because there is something called a gay community, which exists only because so many gay men aren't cowardly, ashamed closet cases spending their lives hiding under their beds.

Do you think that, 40 years ago, before gay people demanded the right to live and exist openly, that you could have public gatherings of gay men under the banner "Male4MaleEscorts"?

>I do not drink from the fruits of the militants who spit

>communion out of their mouths at St. Patrick's Cathedral.

Uhh. . . the people who invaded St. Patrick's Cathedral weren't crusading on behalf of gay rights. They were AIDS activists who were, by and large, HIV-positive and in the process of dying and weren't very pleased with institutions which were sermonizing against AIDS rather than trying to find cures. My guess is that if you were dying and engaged in a protest to find a cure, you'd be something less than quietly polite as well, and even Government scientists acknowledge that the work of ACT-UP in the late 1980s and early 1990s contributed enormous amounts to the study of AIDS and efforts to find treatments.

All that aside, nobody with a straight face (excuse the pun) - except those hiding in the closet - can contend that fearful, scared, hiding gay people who croutch and quiver in closets do more to combat anti-gay bigotry than gay people who live their lives openly without anything to hide and fear.

>So Doug, at the end of all of this I need to ask you, what are

>you doing for New Year's Eve?

Whatever it is, I can assure you I won't be spending it in the closet.

RE: Right wing conservatives

>This is one of those full-of-shit posts wherein the poster

>mentions all kinds of poll results without once mentioning a

>real poll.

Wow, it's fucking scary how ill-informed and ignorant people are.

As I just wrote:

The poll I was referencing was one that was published about 7 days ago on the front page of this right-wing fascist rag called The New York Times. This poll was discussed in virtually every publication in the country and on every political talk show on television and radio. I can't imagine how any literate adult didn't hear of it. Do you read much?

The poll was a comprehensive survey of attitudes regarding gay people generally and gay marriage specifically. What it demonstrated - like many other polls have and like common sense would in any event reveal - is that, far and away, the least bigoted and most supportive attitudes toward gay people are found among those citizens who know gay people.

In other words, the strongest act one can take, by far, to combat anti-gay bigotry is to live openly as a gay person. The most destructive and pitiful act is to live ashamed and in the closet.

Here's the link, bitch - http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30614FB395B0C728EDDAB0994DB404482 - the actual poll results has all the breakdowns for each group, and as the article also reports, the strongest support for gay marriage and for gay people generally, by far, is found among people who know gay people.

I'll accept your apology for lying and saying that I wasn't referencing any "real poll." I didn't post the link because I naturally asssumed that any gay adult citizen would know about this poll and simply assumed knowledge of it. That, I confess, was my mistake for assuming too high a level of knowledge and awareness on the part of people like you.

RE: Right wing conservatives

What a fucking liar. You said no such thing. You constantly quote as if your snotty bullshit is backed up by someone other than your pathetic, non-mattering self. Go back to something you're good at, perhaps sucking Cheney's cock.

RE: Right wing conservatives

>I don’t think that quietly closeted people do as much harm as

>Doug seems to believe, but I think it goes without saying that

>they contribute absolutely nothing to the acceptance of gays.

>How can they? They are transparent so they can’t possibly

>impact anyone’s opinion or feelings about gay people.

A few things about this:

First, many closeted gay men aren't as closeted as they think. People often entertain suspcions about the "nice bachelor uncle" or that "guy who seems to be away from his wife a lot and is a little effeminate." People often suspect that closeted gay men are gay - even though they do their best to hide it - and the fact that closeted gay men hide who they are lends credence to the notion that being gay is something bad, something to hide, something to be ashamed of.

I think that closeted gay men bolster the notion among straight people that being gay is sick and wrong. After all, if even these gay people are ashamed of what they are, doesn't that show how sick it is?

Also, many closeted gay men are ashamed not only of being gay, but also of being closeted. That is why so many of them are so hostile to openly gay people, and you will frequently hear them go on and on about how it's the openly gay people who are responsible for homobphobia - and, why, if everyone were more like those gentle, lamb-like, quiet, scared closet cases, then there wouldn't be as much anti-gay bigotry.

Ultimately, wheter you want to say that closeted gay people harm gay people by not being out, or that they just don't help anything, is just semantics. The fact is that the most effective step anyone can take against anti-gay bigotry is living openly, and those who are too scared to do so have no business criticizing those who aren't.

>>Greetings Doug (who I respectfully agree to disagree with),

>

>Oh, that's nice. I love respectful disagreement. Let's see

>if you live up to the praise you heap on yourself.

I am sorry you have all this anger. I wasn't heaping anything on myself. Now, I respectfully disagree with myself for respectfully disagreeing with you.

>"A poll sent to Nazi's for Queers or Log Cabin Gays" - Gosh,

>that doesn't sound so respectful, now does it?

Why are you judging? I hate Nazis. However, you deny them their choice to be gay?

>And the poll I was referencing was one that was published

>about 7 days ago on the front page of this right-wing fascist

>rag called The New York Times. This poll was discussed

>in virtually every publication in the country and on every

>political talk show on television and radio. I can't imagine

>how any literate adult didn't hear of it. Do you read much?

I guess not as much as you. One can dream. And the great New York Times and all the credible publications you speak of, in your judgment, makes it all true since you seem to believe everything you read. And you must believe a lot since you read so much. Do you believe and agree with everything you read and question nothing? I guess I shouldn't ask as you seem to faithfully read the New York Times. They are SO gay friendly (for a price ... much like an escort).

>It may be "hard to do" - but it's also courageous and achieves

>great good for gay people. And those who are too cowardly and

>scared to do it have absolutely no business criticizing those

>gay people who have done it.

You seem to be stating that freedom of speech, and the right to criticize, has different levels based on one's merit compared to the courage of others. So someone who may be afraid to tell their parents they are gay has no right to criticize anything in the gay "movement"? I am assuming when you came out you were given super powers and a cape?

>Yes - prostitution has always existed. But an open,

>easy-to-access diversity of gay escorts, where you can read

>about them on-line and in magazines and exchange opinions about

>them with other gay men and meet them in bars and restaurants

>rather than hiding in bathrooms exists only because there

>is something called a gay community, which exists only because

>so many gay men aren't cowardly, ashamed closet cases spending

>their lives hiding under their beds.

Do straight men, who are married, do anything differently about how they procure their whores?

>Do you think that, 40 years ago, before gay people demanded

>the right to live and exist openly, that you could have public

>gatherings of gay men under the banner "Male4MaleEscorts"?

No. But is it around today because of the Internet and HooBoy's disclaimer page before entering.

>Uhh. . . the people who invaded St. Patrick's Cathedral

>weren't crusading on behalf of gay rights. They were AIDS

Uhh ... yeah, they were because, in essence, Act Up equates their movement with gay rights ... the fight and right for a cure for a disease that effects others as well. They were mad because the church does not condone the use of a condom. I would almost agree with Act Up in their disagreement with the church if the use of a condom was 100% effective. They seem like an angry child getting their parent to agree with them.

>All that aside, nobody with a straight face (excuse the pun) -

>except those hiding in the closet - can contend that fearful,

>scared, hiding gay people who croutch and quiver in closets do

>more to combat anti-gay bigotry than gay people who live their

>lives openly without anything to hide and fear.

So, instead of finding other ways to fight for gay rights you are now blaming those that aren't as "courageous" as your out, proud and loud self? This kind of dissension doesn't help things either.

FYI - Read the last sentence from the abstract below (and here is the link since you believe everything you read: http://www.aegis.com/news/ads/1989/AD892702.html).

"In a Rage Over AIDS"

Time (12/25/89) Vol. 134, No. 26, P. 33

Magnuson, Ed

Abstract: A recent demonstration at St. Patrick's Cathedral on Fifth Avenue in New York City in which police arrested 43 demonstrators is the latest and ugliest in an escalating series of skirmishes between the Roman Catholic Church and AIDS activists. Cardinal John O'Connor, as an outspoken opponent of using condoms to prevent the spread is HIV, is a prime target for groups such as the AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power (ACT UP), which was largely responsible for the New York demonstration. At St. Patrick's, activists shouted down O'Connor during a service and one demonstrator took a communion wafer and threw it to the ground. O'Connor's angry response to protest is ironic to some people, given his support of the obstructionist techniques of anti-abortion groups such as Operation Rescue. ACT UP and other groups target the Church for shock actions, says ACT UP spokesmanJay Blotcher, "because no other religion so energetically tries to influence public policy." Although ACT UP persists in its attention-grabbing tactics, some members admit the St. Patrick's demonstration went too far.

RE: Right wing conservatives

Point taken. Thanks.

>Not to put words in YOUR mouth,

Don't worry ... no one does!

VDN

RE: Right wing conservatives

And just when you almost sound coherent and literate you say this..

>Here's the link, bitch -

AND...

>I'll accept your apology for lying and saying that I wasn't

>referencing any "real poll." I didn't post the link because I

>naturally asssumed that any gay adult citizen would know about

>this poll and simply assumed knowledge of it. That, I

>confess, was my mistake for assuming too high a level of

>knowledge and awareness on the part of people like you.

Why do you feel other gay people should be just like you and read all that you read? You seem to be such a conformist. ALL gays should have heard of this, ALL gays should know when this poll came out, etc.

Have a cosmo Mary and get a foot rub.

RE: Right wing conservatives

>Why do you feel other gay people should be just like you and

>read all that you read? You seem to be such a conformist.

>ALL gays should have heard of this, ALL gays should know when

>this poll came out, etc.

No, this Jimbeaux thing came here screetching that I pretended to cite a poll that didn't exist. When I demonstrated that his accusations was wrong, and gave him the link to the poll, he proved himself to be so dishonorable that he couldn't ackonowledge that the poll existed, and simply spewed vulgarities and slivered away.

I don't think all gay people should read the same thing. I don't think all gay people should know the same thing. I am just expressing surprise that there are people, particularly gay people, who didn't hear of this widely-discussed poll.

If someone came here and said they hadn't heard there was a war in Iraq, I would be surprised. If someone came here and said that they hadn't heard that the Massachussetes Supreme Judicial Council declared opposite-sex-only marriage to be unconstitutional, I'd be surprised. That someone hadn't heard of this poll is surprising.

I don't think that implies I favor some uniformity of thought - only that I anticipate, wrongly I guess, a minimum level of awareness when I converse with someone.

And I can't help note the irony, in light of my political views, of your accusation that I think all gay people have an obligation to think alike.

RE: Right wing conservatives

This Doug cunt referred to his poll only after I posted my comments. He's a piece of shit liar. Also, my original reference was to his inane comments about how liberals are in the closet and conservatives are open, and he comment that he bases his assertions on postings here. What nonsense! The fact that openly gay men contribute more to the acceptance of gay people in general is of course true. I'm sure even a mental retard like Doug understands that. No big fucking deal. The fact that this idiot is an openly gay man is about as likely as he is educated.

RE: Right wing conservatives

Though I am having disagreements with Doug is it necessary for the cunt and retard name calling?!?

Let's save the name calling for World Idol finals tomorrow on Fox!!!!!

>This Doug cunt referred to his poll only after I posted my

>comments. He's a piece of shit liar. Also, my original

>reference was to his inane comments about how liberals are in

>the closet and conservatives are open, and he comment that he

>bases his assertions on postings here. What nonsense! The

>fact that openly gay men contribute more to the acceptance of

>gay people in general is of course true. I'm sure even a

>mental retard like Doug understands that. No big fucking

>deal. The fact that this idiot is an openly gay man is about

>as likely as he is educated.

RE: Right wing conservatives

Here's what I don't get. You seem to be saying above that a gay liberal is more likely to be closeted than a gay conservative. But that's not going to be true by definition. Perhaps you mean a closeted liberal appalls you more than a closeted conservative?

Me, I don't think political orientation has anything to do with being out or not. It is fear of possible consequences: economic, social and emotional.

As far as the success of the closet ruse, I think it's like wearing a toupee. You see a bad wig and you think, jeez, who do you think you're fooling. But a really good hairpiece, well, nobody knows it's a hairpiece, do they.

I try not to judge gay men who choose to live in the closet, but the deception necessarily involved is troubling. How can that be good for anybody?

(Hi to the new guy.)

RE: Right wing conservatives

>Here's what I don't get. You seem to be saying above that a

>gay liberal is more likely to be closeted than a gay

>conservative.

No, I don't think this, and this was not what I was saying. I joined this little discussion only when the standard, typical puke was being spewed about "isn't it shocking and horrible that some gay people are conservatives? Aren't we all supposed to be liberals?"

I pointed out that it's interesting (to me at least) how gay conservatives are treated like they are the treasonous arch enemies of all things gay, no matter how openly gay they are (and used Andrew Sullivan as an example, who has been more openly, bravely and publicly gay for longer than the vast majority of his haters), and yet, liberals who are totally closeted and ashamed of being gay (and there are HUGE numbers of them here) are treated like warm gay-promoting allies.

I wasn't commenting on the number of closeted conservative gay men versus closeted liberal gay men. I was merely comparing the irrational and sick embrace of closeted liberal gay men versus the castigation of openly gay conservatives.

>I try not to judge gay men who choose to live in the closet,

>but the deception necessarily involved is troubling. How can

>that be good for anybody?

It certainly can't be good for them - I think anyone who has done it knows that. But it's also quite destructive for gay people generally.

>(Hi to the new guy.)

Yes, same for me. Let's do try to remember our priorities.

RE: Right wing conservatives

>I was merely comparing

>the irrational and sick embrace of closeted liberal gay men

>versus the castigation of openly gay conservatives.

That clears it up. Thanks.

I for one would rather be with them than with you.

>I for one would rather be with them than with you.

hey hey escort boy don't even bother responding to that dipshit!!!!!

he's just a sad little trashy trailer dwelling troll...........with nothing better to do then to jackoff to pictures of little boys,he's the typical right wing fag..........self hating and ashamed.