Republican Senator Strom Thurmond Rapist and Racist RIP

RE: Republican Senator Strom Thurmond Rapist and Racist...

no, what you said is pure conjecture. you imagined a hypothetical situation & attempted to foretell the consequence. THAT IS CONJECTURE!

RE: Republican Senator Strom Thurmond Rapist and Racist...

it is my understanding that the AOC was 14 then.

RE: Republican Senator Strom Thurmond Rapist and Racist...

>Well stated. I agree. And I also grew up in Jim Crow South

>with the separate schools and facilities. I sure don't

>remember anyone going around thinking black people were their

>property.

Where I grew up, there were people who thought of blacks as their property, or in many cases, not even human. In essence, slavery was only dead "on paper". Though not in physical chains, the economic chains governing what work blacks were allowed to perform pretty much eliminated any possibility for advancement or self-determination. The options were "do as you're told, or starve". Sounds pretty coercive to me.

>

>As stated I've seen no evidence from anyone involved that the

>sex was not consensual. Interracial consensual sex was a

>common occurrence and not just white men/black women but the

>reverse as well. And it certainly wasn't limited to the rich

>and powerful.

>

>Of course nonconsenual sex was also common, because at the

>time black people in the South certainly had no legal recourse

>as they had no power whatsoever. But where is the evidence

>that this was the case with Strom Thurmond.

>

>As far as trying to use today's laws in a 1920's scenario,

>doesn't that also apply to statutory rape laws? What was the

>law in SC at the time? Did SC even have a statutory rape law,

>and if so what was the age for statutory rape? After all, it

>certainly was quite common in the South at that time for men

>to marry 12 and 13 year old girls.

Does the fact that it was common for men to marry 12 and 13 year old girls mean it was right? Do you think 12 and 13 year old girls are in any position to make choices about such things? They weren't given choices, it was nothing less than child molestation.

>

>To accuse Strom Thurmond of rape, given absolutely no evidence

>to support such a charge is ridiculous.

Once again, only you and Ethan have used the word "rape". I contend that a 22 year old from an old wealthy and powerful Southern family (regardless of political affiliation) during that era who has sex with a sixteen year old servant does not meet a standard of consensuality, since his power over her hardly leaves her the option of saying no without dire consequences. If it makes you feel better, call it child molestation.

>strange how you don't sit here and

>whine about bob byrd's CONTINUING racism.

First, you've provided no evidence that it is continuing.

As far as the whining, we'll leave that up to you. Nobody does it better.

I may be able to read

>what it was like to be a concentration camp prisoner under the

>Nazis based on the accounts of survivors, but I would never

>entertain the notion that I could fully appreciate what they

>went through.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

how true that is bucky, my grandmother was (she is no longer with us)a survivor...i remember as a kid not knowing why she had the faded blue tattoo on her arm,and when i was about 10/11 her telling me about what she had experienced as a child,and the story of the tattoo.how she and her sisters were seperated from her parents never to see them again,how she watched her sister die i know that i will never understand the pain and fear she lived through,my family begins with her all of the others of her generation were lost,no pictures from that period,no mementos,nothing.

guess that's why our whole clan are bleeding heart liberals,the right wing is composed of disgusting bottom feeders.......

>The only white male I'm aware of who could honestly say he

>experienced what African-Americans experienced during the days

>of segregation in the last century would be John Howard

>Griffin. By means of chemicals and radiation, Griffin

>changed his skin color and became a black man traveling

>through the Jim Crow South. If you want to read about his

>experience, his book was called "Black Like Me". I highly

>recommend it to everyone.

it really was a good read. lol bet the revisionist don't like it

RE: Strom Thurmond Rapist

>EVEN the 16 yer old maid never claimed

>she was forced to do anything.

... probably because either she or a close relative would have been lynched for doing so in 1920s Dixie! Go watch Eyes on the Prize, Oren.

RE: Republican Senator Strom Thurmond Rapist and Racist...

>Interracial consensual sex was a

>common occurrence and not just white men/black women but the

>reverse as well. And it certainly wasn't limited to the rich

>and powerful.

I am curious about what you regard as the mechanics of consensual sex in 1920s segregated Dixie if you believe it t have been so common. And if it were so common and acceptable, why does the admission come out only after the old coot has dies? Do you belive that the maid had equal access to the courts to complain about the rape? And would those courts have protected her and her family from lynching?

RE: Republican Senator Strom Thurmond Rapist and Racist...

actually, the subject line of the thread says "rapist," brainiac. TECHNICALLY, that isn't the word "rape" but you're not parsing that are you?

RE: Republican Senator Strom Thurmond Rapist and Racist...

>Once again, only you and Ethan have used the word "rape". I

>contend that a 22 year old from an old wealthy and powerful

>Southern family (regardless of political affiliation) during

>that era who has sex with a sixteen year old servant does not

>meet a standard of consensuality, since his power over her

>hardly leaves her the option of saying no without dire

>consequences. If it makes you feel better, call it child

>molestation.

I am not sure why you draw a distinction between "rape" and "child molestation" when in the case of the 16 year old in the asymetric power relation with Strom, obviously involved non-consensual penetration.

RE: Strom Thurmond Rapist

Do you know for a fact that this relationship between Thurmond and the black maid started when she was 16? Or did she have the child when she was 16. For all we know the sex may have been initiated when she was 15, 14 or even younger. We'll never know because the Thurmonds made sure that enough money was paid to keep mouths shut. Given the options facing the black maid in the South of the 1920's, who's surprised?

And I don't buy this argument that the dead Thurmond can't defend himself, so let's all shut up. He took extraordinary steps to ensure that he would be dead before this story broke. He is an historical figure, he was a public figure, and it is entirely appropriate that his actions be discussed and judged in the light of that history.

RE: Strom Thurmond Rapist

you are still SUPPOSING, PRESUMING, and GUESSING about what happened. characteristically, because you don't like the man's politics, your conclusions are weighted in the negative. you're too blinded by hatred that you're convinced you are correct.

RE: Strom Thurmond Rapist

>you are still SUPPOSING, PRESUMING, and

>GUESSING about what happened. characteristically, because you

>don't like the man's politics, your conclusions are weighted

>in the negative. you're too blinded by hatred that you're

>convinced you are correct.

Looks like you're the one who is SUPPOSING, PRESUMING and GUESSING now. If the person in question had been Robert Byrd rather than Strom Thurmond, I'd still have the same conclusion.......it was non-consensual because of the disparity of power in the relationships between whites and blacks of that era.

RE: Strom Thurmond Rapist

i was addressing luv2play, brainiac! my comments refer to his presumption.

RE: Strom Thurmond Rapist

>i was addressing luv2play, brainiac! my

>comments refer to his presumption.

Doesn't matter who you were addressing. My response still applies.

And while we're at it, you might want to read the NY Times article today about Thurmond. Here is the link, and a pertinent quotation from it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/18/national/18STRO.html?hp

The son of a wealthy lawyer, Mr. Thurmond had what Ms. Williams describes as "an affair" with her mother, Carrie Butler, when he was 22 and she was 16.

"It makes perfect sense," said Edward Ball, a South Carolina native and author of a family memoir called "Slaves in the Family."

"The typical case is that the son of a master's family tested out his sexuality on a vulnerable young woman in the master's house. This is exactly what Strom did."

RE: Strom Thurmond Rapist

it DOES matter. you explained your reasoning for feeling the way you do. i don't agree with you, but you at least gave SOME explanation for it. luv did not. his comments are simply ant totally presumption.

RE: Strom Thurmond Rapist

Let me say this clearly so your dim little brain can absorb it without too much trouble. Strom Thurmond was a racist white rich guy who fucked his daddy's black maid. She had his child at the age of 16, we DON'T know when he started fucking her because hush money was paid. In any event, as someone else has pointed out, the power imbalance made any issue of consensual sex a nonsense. I did not PRESUME anything in my original post, I clearly stated we were not in a position to know because Thurmond ensured that with money (payments that are reported to have reached close to $1million over his lifetime). Just another story of rich man's justice.

RE: Strom Thurmond Rapist

>In any event, as someone else has

>pointed out, the power imbalance made any issue of consensual

>sex a nonsense.

Oh, so where's there is a severe power imbalance among sexual partners, it's "nonsense" to assume it's consensual. So does that mean that Bill Clinton, 54 year-old President of the Untied States, Leader of the Free World, Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States raped Monica Lewinksy, 22-year-old intern girl? After all, how can there be any greater of a power imbalance than that?

I did not PRESUME anything in my original

>post, I clearly stated we were not in a position to know

>because Thurmond ensured that with money (payments that are

>reported to have reached close to $1million over his

>lifetime). Just another story of rich man's justice.

If you think there's something sinister and untoward about a man paying money to the mother of his child and to that child, then you are in no position to lecture Strom Thurmond, or anyone else, about what is and is not moral.

Given what a good relationship Strom Thurmond had with his daughter throughout her life (visiting her in college frequently, having her visit him, supporting her), and given how she has nothing but good things to say about him, I think it's pretty fucking unlikely that he raped her mother, don't you?

RE: Strom Thurmond Rapist

Don't think your "reductio ad absurdum" fools anyone. A power imbalance exists between every pairing of individuals, that's just human nature. But how a 22 year old woman decides to respond to a proposition from a powerful political figure is of a different order of magnitude from how a black 16 (or 15) year old maid responded to her master's son in the 1920's South. (Response to your second point to follow.)

RE: Strom Thurmond Rapist

About the hush money, there's a world of difference between a man acknowledging his paternity and openly supporting his offspring from a man who paid a woman's family to KEEP QUIET so as not to harm his social or political position. Thurmond was nothing but a racist who was smart enough to see that when the tide of history went against his beliefs he had to adjust his positions (but not his beliefs) to hang onto power. Unfortunately, his story is not unique and we are constantly reminded that his ilk are still around such as the recently departed Speaker of the Senate, another good ole boy from the South.

RE: Strom Thurmond Rapist

>Given what a good relationship Strom Thurmond had with his

>daughter throughout her life (visiting her in college

>frequently, having her visit him, supporting her), and given

>how she has nothing but good things to say about him, I think

>it's pretty fucking unlikely that he raped her mother, don't

>you?

Not so unlikely at all.......people do all kinds of things, motivated by guilt or fear. You should know something about that.

RE: Strom Thurmond Rapist

>Let me say this clearly so your dim little brain can absorb

>it without too much trouble. Strom Thurmond was a racist white

>rich guy who fucked his daddy's black maid. She had his child

>at the age of 16, we DON'T know when he started fucking her

>because hush money was paid. In any event, as someone else has

>pointed out, the power imbalance made any issue of consensual

>sex a nonsense. I did not PRESUME anything in my original

>post, I clearly stated we were not in a position to know

>because Thurmond ensured that with money (payments that are

>reported to have reached close to $1million over his

>lifetime). Just another story of rich man's justice.

supporting your child does not equal hush money. is taylor's daddy paying hush money?

there IS the possibility that this maid was so enamored with the slightly older strom that she pursued him. PERHAPS he resisted the lolita for a while, but eventually developed feelings for her--feelings that could not be publicly expressed due to the climate of 1920s SC which lefty has explained to us. so, they had a brief, but passionate, physical affair. the maid became pregnant. obviously he could not marry the maid--for many reasons, not the least of which was her skin colour--but he DID support that child for her entire life.

that is at least as likely, based on the information we've been provided, as your PRESUMPTIVE scenario.

i hope i was clear so that your dim little brain could absorb it.

RE: Strom Thurmond Rapist

>there IS the possibility that this maid was so enamored with

>the slightly older strom that she pursued him. PERHAPS he

>resisted the lolita for a while, but eventually developed

>feelings for her--feelings that could not be publicly

>expressed due to the climate of 1920s SC which lefty has

>explained to us. so, they had a brief, but passionate,

>physical affair. the maid became pregnant.

Oh, come on! You might be able to dream up a scenario that is less ominous than the rape/pressure/sexual harassment that others are dreaming up, but there are likely scenarios and there are ridiculous scenarios. This falls into the latter category.

A black servant PURSUING the white mister? Yeah, right. Thurmond developing feelings for her? If he ever had feelings for a black woman, do you really think he would make speeches in later years where he pledged that the “negro race” would never have access to “our pools” as if their presence would pollute the water? Come on.

You can make a case for him being the product of his times. You can continue to point out that no one really knows the circumstances and his daughter truly doesn’t seem to be bitter. But to hypothesize that he might have actually had feelings for her is kind of absurd. In truth, if he ever did, I think that would make his later actions even more despicable.

RE: Strom Thurmond Rapist

>A black servant PURSUING the white mister?

maybe. perhaps she was unstable like kobe's accuser and thought something could develope. note: i say "MAYBE" because none of us knows. i'll concede it isn't likely, but it is JUST as likely as the scenario that she (the maid) was raped, based on the information available to us.

>Thurmond developing feelings for her? If he ever had feelings

>for a black woman, do you really think he would make speeches

>in later years where he pledged that the “negro race” would

>never have access to “our pools” as if their presence would

>pollute the water? Come on.

sure he'd say that if it would get/keep him elected.

RE: Strom Thurmond Rapist

>> it is JUST

>as likely as the scenario that she (the maid) was raped, based

>on the information available to us.

Utter poppycock. There's such a thing as precedent, and it was commonplace for privileged whites to "use" black women for their satisfaction, without consent.

RE: Strom Thurmond Rapist

and you think none of the maids fell for the dashing, rich young men of the house?