Muslims, Christians, Jews

My heart is troubled tonight, after reading about the bombings of the synagogues in Turkey. I'm sure that we will never know the real truth about this latest horror. Politics are as such now that there are too many likely culprits... perhaps some fringe muslim group, perhaps the CIA, perhaps Al Qaeda, perhaps Israel. Any and all would have things to gain by stirring up Turkey, a nation uncomfortably straddling the wall between The West and the Arab World. This explosion is an attempt to see which side of the wall Turkey will fall into.

The three brat siblings of the Angry God have been at it for so long. The histories of so many nations, so many cultures have have hinged on this conflict. Not that it's really about religious ideals. It's always been about economics. From the ancient trade routes connecting east and west, north and south, to today's petroleum culture, the little hub where Africa, Europe & Asia meet has always been the spark of conflict, greed and hatred, from the time of Babylon forward.

In this part of the world, no one's hands are clean, and no one's God is listening anymore.

I certainly have no answers. But I know that until individuals depart from religious and ethnic bigotry, nothing will change. And until societies seek economic parity, nothing will change.

Until then, it's gonna be no fun, no fun at all.

well, we don't need axe around here when idiots like you go around trying to accuse Israel of blowing up synagogues.

what a fucking moron!

let me add to my previous post...

>perhaps some fringe muslim group, perhaps the CIA, perhaps Al

>Qaeda, perhaps Israel. Any and all would have things to gain by

>stirring up Turkey

you know nothing about regional politics! Israel would gain nothing by fomenting trouble in turkey. turkey was the first muslim state to recognise Israel--in 19fucking48! Israel and turkey have LONGSTANDING diplomatic, economic, and military relationships.

>a nation uncomfortably straddling the wall between The West and the

>Arab World.

more stupidity! turkey IS NOT arab!!!! the people are TURKS. turks are not arabs! muslim does NOT equal arab! ever hear of indonesia? it happens to be in southeast asia and is the most populous muslim country!

>well, we don't need axe around here

>when idiots like you go around trying to accuse Israel of

>blowing up synagogues.

>what a fucking moron!

Didn't you mean for that response to come from Oren? :* Who needs Axe if the thoughtful, intelligent people can't even be civil to each other?

Israel probably didn't do this, but they may well do something atrocious in response and it'll keep escalating.

All this killing in the name of god, when each of these religion's texts states thou shalt not kill. Invoking religious BS is just a cover for socio/economic warfare, Trix is right.

Well, my goodness, Ethan! You are a Hot-headed little thing. I suppose when all that blood normally stored in your oversized penis rushes to your head, it's an uncontrollable feeling. That would explain your temper.

Now, let me explain that I know very well who the Turks are. They began moving into Anatolia around the 7th-8th centuries, BC (forgive my use of Christian dating, but it's the system I was raised with.) They are indeed not Arabs, having originated in the heart of Asia. And if you re-read my post, you'll find that I do not call them Arabs. In fact, as the center of the Ottoman Empire, they controlled much of the Arab world for centuries. I said they were in a position BETWEEN the West (Europe) and the Arab World.

As to your second rant, as to whether Israel could have any thing to gain by these bombings... why yes, they do. If they were to cause Turkey, culturally a muslim people, to become involved in the conflict in Iraq, it would benefit Israel very much.

Trix

> Politics

>are as such now that there are too many likely culprits...

>perhaps some fringe muslim group, perhaps the CIA, perhaps Al

>Qaeda, perhaps Israel.

This is definitely the most repugnant post I've read here. I know that there are people who actually "think" that 9/11 was perpetrated by the CIA and/or Israel, but most of them are illiterate, uneducated, oppressed Muslims who are fed that by their religious leaders.

I know that some of the people who "think" this way are in the West as well, but it's nonetheless astounding to actually be exposed to it - to see a living, breathing example of this virus.

When is the last time the CIA or the State of Isreal bombed a synagogue, you fucking idiot?

>My heart is troubled tonight, after reading about the

>bombings of the synagogues in Turkey.

It isn't your heart that's troubled. It's your brain. The only problem with your "heart" is that it's filled with poison and the exact hatred which you pretend saddens you.

I'm sure that we will

>never know the real truth about this latest horror.

Do you think we know the "real truth" about 9/11? Do you think that Israel or the CIA perpetrated that attack? Did you hear that all the Israelis and Jews who work in the WTC didn't show up for work that day? I bet you have heard that.

> Any and all would have things to gain

>by stirring up Turkey, a nation uncomfortably straddling the

>wall between The West and the Arab World.

It's hard to express how ill-informed this statement is.

>The three brat siblings of the Angry God have been at it for

>so long.

Yes - everything is relative. Christians and Jews are constantly flying planes into buildings filled with innocent civilians and blowing up mosques where religious people are worshipping. When will they stop doing that?

>I certainly have no answers. But I know that until

>individuals depart from religious and ethnic bigotry, nothing

>will change. And until societies seek economic parity,

>nothing will change.

"Until people give up religion and become Communists, everything will be bad."

again, you know nothing about regional politics. there would be no benefit to Israel. and shame on you for accusing Israel of blowing up Jews praying on Shabbat! you're just like the conspiracy theorists who say that the mossad or the shin bet brought down the world trade centre towers.

>Didn't you mean for that response to come from Oren?

clearly, i intended to make the response.

>:* Who

>needs Axe if the thoughtful, intelligent people can't even be

>civil to each other?

i don't think accusing Israel of such a crime is thoughtful, intelligent, nor civil.

where's his evidence of any Israeli complicity?

>Israel probably didn't do this, but they may well do something

>atrocious in response and it'll keep escalating.

there is no "probably" about it! the victims here were Jews praying on the sabbath. how vile for people to leap to "Israel did it!" any time something bad happens in the world. the days of blaming Jews for everything bad about the world haven't ended???

>there is no "probably" about it! the victims here were Jews

>praying on the sabbath. how vile for people to leap to "Israel

>did it!" any time something bad happens in the world. the days

>of blaming Jews for everything bad about the world haven't

>ended???

I fully agree it's vile, but point out that you're the only one screaming any such thing.

I won't bother talking with Ethan. We've all heard about the Sword of Islam; apparently he is the Blunt Instrument of Judah. Doug69, however, your posts have occasionally made me sit up and think (which makes me dizzy, so i don't do it often). Not this particular one, mind you, it had all the charm and intelligence of a wolverine backed into a corner.

But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. You speak with the authority of one who sees all, knows all. Therefore I will quietly wait while you explain to myself and to everyone on this board what is actually going on in the Mideast, who is innocent, who is at fault, and how the conflict might be reconciled, to the benefit of all.

La Trix

>Doug69, however, your posts have occasionally made me

>sit up and think (which makes me dizzy, so i don't do it

>often). Not this particular one, mind you, it had all the

>charm and intelligence of a wolverine backed into a corner.

It's just a little amazing to see such extreme and baseless accusations being bandied about with such ease. And I grant that it can provoke emotions and anger, on the very day one reads about such horrible slaughter, to come and read people's posts as they casually ponder whether all sorts of people are to blame for it.

I mean think about it - the Israeli goverment, or the CIA, placing bombs in synagogues and blowing to bits and pieces innocent people, including small children, attenting a bar mitzvah. If that were so, it would be one of the most evil and heinous acts imaginable.

I think before you publicly declare that to be a serious possibility, you ought to have some evidence of it first - either rooted in past conduct or current information. Do you? If not, it's totally reckless to speculate that way.

>But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. You

>speak with the authority of one who sees all, knows all.

>Therefore I will quietly wait while you explain to myself and

>to everyone on this board what is actually going on in the

>Mideast, who is innocent, who is at fault, and how the

>conflict might be reconciled, to the benefit of all.

I don't pretend to have all the answers in the Middle East or anywhere else - nobody does. It's a complex problem with few easy truths. But that doesn't mean that it's a free-for-all either, or that any sort of accusation or musing, no matter how detatched from reality and no matter how destructive, is acceptable.

You decry religious hatred and yet the type of wild accusations you are tossing about does nothing but fuel the very hatred you claim to dislike.

The fact that a problem is difficult is all the more reason to be responsible when discussing it. Accusing people or organizations of engaging in mass murder of innocent people is not responsible unless you have some basis for believing it's true.

no, trixie posted the unfounded accusation.

fine... don't talk to me. shall i cry now, or cry later?

the fact is that you made a very distressing and even hurtful accusation when you suggested that Israel was behind these synagogue bombings. you don't offer anything to back up your wild assertion.

News reported tonight Al Queda's taking credit for it (just in case not everybody here already saw that). I don't even like to see the news much anymore - it's always tragic...seems moreso everyday.

>News reported tonight Al Queda's taking credit for it (just

>in case not everybody here already saw that). I don't even

>like to see the news much anymore - it's always tragic...seems

>moreso everyday.

Gosh, what a shock. Glad that mystery is solved. All day, I was wondering: "Who could possibly have done this? The Mossad? A secret team of Pentagon operatives working under Douglas Feith? Mr. Smith in the parlor with a candle?" I just couldn't figure it out.

So it was Al-Qaeda which did it? Well, what do you know - it's one surprise after the next.

Doug69, you have done me a great honor in posting a reply that stated quite clearly how you feel on the subject, and refrained from attempting to debase me with namecalling. I thank you!

I also believe that you are quite sincere in your feelings and your reckoning of the "mideast stituation". I also feel that I mispoke by using the term "Israel"...and I do apologize for that. I do not like nor trust the current Israeli government, and Sharon is not "Israel", any more than Bush is "America."

I feel that at this point, every government and/or political group involved in the area is playing dirty pool. None of them have clean hands, not Arafat, not Sharon, not Bush, not the King of S.A., and on. And as the crisis becomes more desparate, so do the tactics of all involved. I did not necessarily accuse The Israeli government,

but I would not rule them out. But that is only my feeling.

I hope you would understand that this does not make me an anti-semite, nor anti-israeli, any more than feeling that the CIA or the Bush admin is up to no good makes me anti-american. I feel that in many ways America is a miracle, a success story never before witnessed in human history. I also feel a deep respect and even awe for the jewish religion, and jewish culture. (and those cute basic black outfits the orthodox men wear are to die for!) However, as the bumpersticker says, there are times when, although I love my country, I fear my government.

And I fear the current governent of Israel as well. It is very difficult to believe a government claiming to be a righteous soldier, when there is so much evidence of unrighteous behaviour in it's wake.

And oh yes, lest anyone feels I'm picking on the US and Israel, I distrust the governments of most muslim nations as well. But America is my country, and Israel it's close ally. I want to feel proud of them. Therefore I hold them to higher standards.

La Trix

I'll go ahead and go on record as saying that I too found the insinuation that the CIA or Israel could have been responsible for this heinous act offensive. It reminded me of what I considered to be ignorant theories that either the U.S. Government or Israel was responsible for 9/11.

While I recognize that it is your right to voice any opinion or theory you desire, I also think it's reasonable to expect someone who is Jewish (e.g., Ethan) to react angrily to such an accusation.

Ms. Trix -

As long as we're "going on record" (Ooo-o-o-o!) I'm pleased to say that, even though your post contained something to bother everyone, it didn't offend me in the least. In fact, I very much liked the line "no one's God is listening anymore."

It all reminds me of yet another Emily Dickinson poem:

[blockquote]Split the Lark—and you'll find the Music—

Bulb after Bulb, in Silver rolled—

Scantilly dealt to the Summer Morning

Saved for your Ear when Lutes be old.

Loose the Flood—you shall find it patent—

Gush after Gush, reserved for you—

Scarlet Experiment! Sceptic Thomas!

Now, do you doubt that your Bird was true?

b

>Ms. Trix -

>

>As long as we're "going on record" (Ooo-o-o-o!) I'm pleased to

>say that, even though your post contained something to bother

>everyone, it didn't offend me in the least. In fact, I very

>much liked the line "no one's God is listening anymore."

>

>It all reminds me of yet another Emily Dickinson poem:

http://www.ezshots.com/members/blueman/images/blueman-54.jpg

RE: Apology

Bluenix! You certainly know the way to a girl's heart!! If ever I were to leave my attic room, certainly I would want to meet you.

To Doug69, and Ethan, and any other Jewish soul I may have offended, I offer my apologies. My intention in my original post was to convey my own personal feeling that there are no Knights in Shining Armor left in this conflict. I am entitled to my opinions about the current government of Israel, the CIA, Al Qaeda all being flaming bags of shit, but I should not suggest that "Israel" would sacrifice it's own thusly.

I hope you will accept this self-correction.

Trix

>I mean think about it - the Israeli goverment, or the CIA,

>placing bombs in synagogues and blowing to bits and pieces

>innocent people, including small children, attenting a bar

>mitzvah. If that were so, it would be one of the most evil

>and heinous acts imaginable.

I do not believe either Israel or the CIA are involved.

But I ask you to keep in mind that the CIA has regularly taken part in overthrowing democratically elected governments and replaced them with military dictatorships friendly to US ideology and business. That both governments, American and Israeli, have somewhat routinely wiped out the entire families of their targets without remorse. (Not Bush with his beloved Bin Laden's of course..., but Quadaffy comes to mind..., as well as other American helicopter gunships firing in residential areas, recently even, not American operated, but I wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of the Blunt Instrument of Judea..., that thing could hurt! }()

It'd be great to be able to believe such a thing was flatly impossible, but that takes the kind of blind faith that gets us into much of this trouble in the first place.

RE: Apology

i had a long post prepared, but...

thanks.

RE: Apology

>To Doug69, and Ethan, and any other Jewish soul I may have

>offended, I offer my apologies.

I didn't say I was Jewish, and I don't think you need to - or even should - apologize for what you said if it's what you believe, and I think it is.

I don't believeit makes you an anti-semite or anti-American to say what you said, but it does make me wonder about what you think of the United States, Israel and Islamic funamentalist terrorists. It seems like you see them pretty much as being morally indistinguishable - that if a bomb goes off in an all-civilian venue and INTENTIONALLY does nothing but kills innocent civilians, then, as far as you're concerned, it's just as likely to have been the U.S. or Israel which is the perpetrator as it is Al-Qaeda.

Given that there is simply no evidence to support this view -- when have the U.S. or Israeli Governments purposely and deliberately killed innocent civilians without there being a military target? -- it seems as though your willingness to believe (as it turns out, falsely) that they were possibly responsible for this atrocity is a reflection of your belief that they are no differnet than the people who flew those planes into our buildings on Septmeber 11 (as well as committed countless identical, though less fatal, acts in the past).

There are people who think this way - that the US and Israel are really no different and no better than Al Qaeda. I don't think such people are necessarily anti-American or anti-Semitic (although many are), but I do believe that anyone who thinks this has some serious deficiencies in their moral judgment and capacity to reason.

If someone is unable to understand the difference between military action against an enemy which incidentally kills civilians and attacks which have no purpose and no goal other than to slaughter innocent people, then it's difficult to see how such a person can make meaningful distinctions between governments and terrorists, b

between a nation's armed forces and mass murderers, between any sort of good and evil at all.

My intention in my original

>post was to convey my own personal feeling that there are no

>Knights in Shining Armor left in this conflict.

There's a huge range between "Knight in Shining Armor" and "ruthless mass murderer." The fact that no player in these conflicts qualifies as the former doesn't mean they are all accurately characterized as the latter.

I am entitled

>to my opinions about the current government of Israel, the

>CIA, Al Qaeda all being flaming bags of shit, . . .

All equal?

RE: Apology

Yes, Doug69, I do believe in the difference between good and evil. As I said before, this is why I hold my government to a higher standard.

The US (probably) does not go about flying planes into buildings full of people, at least not on purpose. The work of terrorists is very obvious, very public.

Our government's bad behaviour is not quite as glamorous, but it is there. For years it had been pumping money and weaponry into Iraq (to upset Iran) and Afghanistan (to upset the formerSoviet Union). The US literally created the monsters it is now having to combat, by propping these insane pawns (Hussein, the Taliban) up in positions of power.

Have not thousands of innocents been killed by these actions? Can this sort of maneuvering qualify as "good"?

Oh dear... I have to go to work now.

I'm sure I'll find you when I get home tonight.

Ciao!

Trix