I'd Like To Thank God......

Am I a transvestite? Good Lord, why hasn't anyone told me???

Trix

serious responce... not intending to be mean here:

well, i thought you were a woman. then, i guessed that you were either a drag queen or a trannie. now you just remind me of some kid who just came out--embracing queerdom and femininity as strongly as possible to thumb your nose and say "SO THERE!" to society & preconceived notions of sexuality and gender roles.

are you annie lennox? :o

But my dear Ethan, I'm just having fun! God Knows (and I thank him/her for it!) that I have a "feminine" side. Or should I say a "Gloria Swanson" side, since women these days rarely behave as do I.

I am only a flight of fantasy, as are you in your business. What better place to be fanciful than on a board dedicated to sex workers and their clients? Call it camp, call it what you will.

But I am Trixie, damn it! Whom no man shall conquer! (Unless he buys me dinner first...)

La Belle Trix

you forgot to beat your breast (bosom?) to emphasise your last statement.

I'm afraid I might pop the water balloons if i did that!

Trix

you've actually been making me laugh tonight...

Well then, my work is done! Good night Ethan, and everyone else, I must get my beauty rest.

Trix

ha! g'night.

>serious responce... not intending to be

>mean here:

>well, i thought you were a woman. then, i guessed that you

>were either a drag queen or a trannie. now you just remind me

>of some kid who just came out--embracing queerdom and

>femininity as strongly as possible to thumb your nose and say

>"SO THERE!" to society & preconceived notions of sexuality and

>gender roles.

>

>are you annie lennox? :o

..."You might be interested in Harold Bloom's contention that the Hebrew pronouns which refer to God in the original Old Testament are genderless. Since I don't read Hebrew, I can't check this, but I do know that Milton also agrees with you."

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/2003-August/000587.html

> must get my beauty rest.

Well that couldn't possibly take more than an hour!

Trixie you are like a ray of sunshine on a dark, rainy day -- always unexpected and always appreciated.

Doug,

As I was reading the opening few posts of this thread, my reaction was gut wrenching and although I seldom come into this forum , and even less often chime in on a thread here, I began to try to focus my response. then I read your response. I have to say, I thank God for sending me in here this morning, because Up until now, I was unable to relate to most of your responses in other threads. Today, as I read what you had to say, I found myself ready to stand up and cheer. Thanking God for my life, blessings and talents is second nature to me.

I am a Christian. As such, I ache when a Christian displays a lack of charity and condemns anyone or anything that doesn't conform to what he believes. I cringe when a believer makes statements trumpeting their faith in some kind of fashion that belittles all others. I have groaned when the world, and the gay world most often, trashes me as right wing fundamentalist. I am a man who wrestles with God often but in one respect I have never waivered. My talents and blessings (whatever they may be) all come from him. I wish others could see it is possible to have a strong faith in Him, and still be Gay. the fact that outspoken Christians demonize Gays is deplorable. The fact that gays demonize believers is no better. While the by products of faith are often very public, the course of faith is something the Bible tells us should be private.

The long and short of this response however is to greet you as a brother and ask for forgiveness of any previous negative thoughts I may have had about you.

JH, this was such a beautiful post. As a gay man who is also a devout Christian, I loved the way you summed it all up so cognizantly and so compassionately. Your words show that you embody the true spirit of Christ's teachings. At the risk of incurring the wrath of others, I say God Bless you and yours always!

>The long and short of this response however is to greet you as

>a brother and ask for forgiveness of any previous negative

>thoughts I may have had about you.

I guess I missed the post where Doug actually said that he was a Christian believer. Greet him how you will and ask forgiveness for whatever you want, but he seems quite capable of arguing a point without having a personal stake in the matter. We all make assumptions and reach conclusions based on other people’s posts, but I try not to take major leaps. (I’d ask directly but he doesn’t respond well to interrogation.)

I’m a complete atheist. I certainly have some views about religion that religious people would find offensive, but I keep them to myself as much as possible. The problem is that fundamentalist Christians don’t do the same and non-religious people like myself feel that they are under attack.

It is very offensive to be attacked because of something you consider superstition, and I think that mockery is an appropriate response. I also think that the fundamentalists deserve the insult. Unfortunately, just like Muslims get a bad wrap because of the extremists, the Christians who just want to have their faith and impose it on no one get caught in the crossfire.

I would be very happy to never discuss religion and never mock anyone’s beliefs if there weren’t people out there convinced that they know the unknowable and ready to legislate their version of the Truth.

Phage,

I agree. I was not assuming that Doug was a believer, simply greeting him as a human being and expressing appreciation for his clear explanation of his views in his post.

I try not to impose my belief system on others and can fully understand your point of view given how much evil has been done in the name of faith (all faiths are culpable). Each of us must decide for ourselves what our relationship (if any) is to a higher being (if there is One).

Hope that clears up any mis-understanding.

>The problem is that

>fundamentalist Christians don’t do the same and non-religious

>people like myself feel that they are under attack.

Well, for one thing, part of the Christian religion encourages - even compels - Christians to share their faith and love of God with others. Surely you see nothing wrong with Christians trying to show others the fulfillment, peace and truth which they believe they have found from their religion, do you? Do you think they should be obeligated to keep it to themselves?

Also, can you tell me how you are "under attack" by Christians? What are they doing to you that constitutes an "attack" on you? "Attack" is a rather strong word. Many people in our culture, being as complacent and safe as they are, often use melodrmatic, victim language (such as "I'm being attacks") to refer to minor offenses or criticisms.

Is that what you were doing, or are you realy being "attacked" by Christians?

>It is very offensive to be attacked because of something you

>consider superstition, and I think that mockery is an

>appropriate response.

So think how Christians must feel reading this thread - where they are continuously "attacked" and mocked. Since you think it's appropriate to mock Christians when you feel "attacked" by them, would you think it's appropriate for Christians to come here and then mock gay people after reading this thread attacking them? I think I know the answer - so what's the difference?

I also think that the fundamentalists

>deserve the insult. Unfortunately, just like Muslims get a

>bad wrap because of the extremists, the Christians who just

>want to have their faith and impose it on no one get caught in

>the crossfire.

Oh - sort of like: "I know that not ALL gays molest boys or hang out all day in bathhouses spreading AIDS, but since there ARE some who do that, unfortuantely the gay people who don't do those things get caught in the crossfire."

>I would be very happy to never discuss religion and never mock

>anyone’s beliefs if there weren’t people out there convinced

>that they know the unknowable and ready to legislate their

>version of the Truth.

So are you for or against the efforts to ban high school football players from saying prayers before they pray? Are you for or against the reciting of the Pledge of Allegience in schools? How do you feel about all of those efforts to extinguish any remnant of religion from the public sphere, where it has existed for 250+ years?

Can't you see how those efforts to suppress Christianity, combined with the type of mockery of Christianity which you see in this thread which comes from the same people, could make THEM feel like THEY are under "attack" from athiests, gays and others? Or are you only able to see these things from your perspective?

<<I would be very happy to never discuss religion and never mock anyone’s beliefs if there weren’t people out there convinced that they know the unknowable and ready to legislate their version of the Truth>>

"AMEN"! to your entire post. i couldn't have said it better than you have. thank you.

A shame you can't get the rest of your atheist friends to go along with you. The court cases which have brought up so much of the atheist view were all started by the individual atheist trying to force his beliefs on the people who do not have atheistic beliefs.

>Well, for one thing, part of the Christian religion encourages

>- even compels - Christians to share their faith and love of

>God with others. Surely you see nothing wrong with Christians

>trying to show others the fulfillment, peace and truth which

>they believe they have found from their religion, do you? Do

>you think they should be obeligated to keep it to themselves?

I believe they are obligated to keep it out of the legislature and off my doorstep. I have just as much right to be free from religion as they do to practice it.

>Is that what you were doing, or are you realy being "attacked"

>by Christians?

I was very careful to keep my points focused on the fundamentalists and you have chosen to broaden that to Christians in general throughout your response. It’s weak and I’m not going to get sucked into that.

I feel threatened and attacked by the fundamentalists and their political activities. I feel threatened (not me, personally, but it could be someone in my family) by the fundamentalist whack jobs who harass and attack abortion clinics. I feel threatened by their increasing radicalism in the face of failure to accomplish all of their political goals.

You can view that any way that you want and call it anything you want, but I feel them nipping at my heels and I don’t like it one bit. So, yes, I consider that an attack on my way of life.

>So think how Christians must feel reading this thread - where

>they are continuously "attacked" and mocked. Since you think

>it's appropriate to mock Christians when you feel "attacked"

>by them, would you think it's appropriate for Christians to

>come here and then mock gay people after reading this thread

>attacking them? I think I know the answer - so what's the

>difference?

As above, I’m not going to get sucked into this. I was talking about fundamentalists and you don’t get to make your point by changing it to Christians in general. Like fundamentalists don’t regularly mock the way we live and love? It would also be a very different thing if I went to a Christian forum and starting mocking their beliefs. I wouldn’t do that – even to fundamentalists.

>Oh - sort of like: "I know that not ALL gays molest boys or

>hang out all day in bathhouses spreading AIDS, but since there

>ARE some who do that, unfortuantely the gay people who don't

>do those things get caught in the crossfire."

Not sort of… it’s exactly like that. I didn’t say that it’s the ideal situation, but it is a fact of life. All groups get tarnished by the actions of their most extreme elements. It doesn’t make it right, but it doesn’t make it any worse when it happens to Christians. If they are really concerned about it, maybe they should do the same thing that many gays do. Try to counter that stigma by distancing themselves from the radical fundamentalists much like mainstream gays distance themselves from the NAMBLA types.

>So are you for or against the efforts to ban high school

>football players from saying prayers before they pray?

Against. Any player can say their own silent prayer at any time, but there shouldn’t be any organized prayer. How do you accommodate everyone’s beliefs? What about the Jewish or Muslim kid? Why should they feel uncomfortable or excluded? As a practical matter it is impossible to accommodate everyone’s belief so there is no place for it in a secular public school. There are plenty of faith based schooling alternatives.

> Are you for or against the reciting of the Pledge of Allegience in

>schools?

I think it’s a silly remnant of days gone by. Not because it says “One nation under God.” Just because it seems silly for children to place their hand over their heart and make a pledge. I don’t believe it serves any purpose. Are we so insecure about the greatness of our nation that we need to indoctrinate our children?

>How do you feel about all of those efforts to

>extinguish any remnant of religion from the public sphere,

>where it has existed for 250+ years?

I give no credence to something just because it has existed for a long time. In the past there were only Christians and people who were unable or afraid to speak out. Jews wouldn’t rock the boat. Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists were unheard of. And it was heresy to admit that you didn’t even believe in God. Well things change. Now these groups are demanding that their beliefs be respected. As I said above, it is impossible to accommodate everyone, so I believe that the public sphere should strive to be 100% secular.

>Or are you only able to see these things

>from your perspective?

I can see their perspective only to a point. I obviously don’t know how it feels to be filled with certainty that I know the Truth and the need to convert others. When civil rights collide, there has to be a line drawn. I believe that the law should defer to the secular because that is the only way to treat everyone the same regardless of their personal beliefs.

>I feel threatened and attacked by the fundamentalists and

>their political activities. I feel threatened (not me,

>personally, but it could be someone in my family) by the

>fundamentalist whack jobs who harass and attack abortion

>clinics. I feel threatened by their increasing radicalism in

>the face of failure to accomplish all of their political

>goals.

Speaking of feeling threatened, did you see where earlier this month building of the new Planned Parenthood facility in Austin, Texas, was halted by right-to-life contractors?

[blockquote]The Austin Area Pro-Life Concrete Contractors and Suppliers Association announced the boycott shortly before the project began. Chairman Chris Danze, owner of Maldonado and Danze Inc., said every concrete supplier within 60 miles of Austin had agreed not to supply materials.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/11/05/abortion.boycott.ap/[/blockquote]

The RTLs will be flocking to Austin, no doubt, to try to figure out how to replicate this "success" across the country.

Confidential to Doug69: how come when you're talking religion you get especially vague and bombastic? I'm tempted to suspect your acquaintance with things spiritual is less than first hand.

I did see that report. I suppose people can pretty much do business with whomever they wish, but can you imagine the uproar if they targeted some other organization? No, those good ol’ Christians never try to impose their beliefs on other people!

How do you feel about that case where the table of boys at lunch were saying grace (privately and for themselves) and the teacher stopped them and told them that if they did it again they would have to go to the principal and if they continued they would have detention.

How do you feel about the situation where the kids cannot have a private club like any other private club at the schools that is religious in nature but the teachers can have the kids study the Koran and practice the religious forms of that religion in class.

>How do you feel about that case where the table of boys at

>lunch were saying grace (privately and for themselves) and the

>teacher stopped them and told them that if they did it again

>they would have to go to the principal and if they continued

>they would have detention.

There are always going to be instances of overzealous enforcement when undergoing a shift on what is considered acceptable behavior. This sounds like going overboard to me since this was essentially private behavior. Without being trite, I believe the behavior should be similar to what is considered acceptable in other public accommodations. No one is going to object if you are in a restaurant and the people at the next table say grace. However, it’s a problem if those people get up and exhort the entire restaurant to join them in a moment of prayer.

>How do you feel about the situation where the kids cannot have

>a private club like any other private club at the schools that

>is religious in nature but the teachers can have the kids

>study the Koran and practice the religious forms of that

>religion in class.

I’m not familiar with this case – assuming it is a real situation and not a hypothetical – I would assume studying the Koran was part of a World Religion course and not some kind of “Welcome to Islam” program. There is certainly room for studying all of the world’s great religions and getting an academic understanding of their beliefs. I don’t know what you mean by “practicing religious forms” (having trouble visualizing a class praying in Arabic) but obviously I wouldn’t support that any more than I would support the class practicing Christian rituals.

As far as the club goes, if I were making all the rules, I would say “no.” As I said, I believe that schools should be secular places. Every church that I’m familiar with has youth groups and makes arrangements for young people to gather to express there religion. I just don’t see why it needs to be brought to campus. What possible reason could there be for having a club, outside of their own church, except to “spread the word?” I don’t think that schools should be used for recruitment.

I also believe that it opens Pandora’s Box. What are you going to do about the kids who want to start a Wicca club, or taken to the extreme, a Satanic club?

<<The court cases which have brought up so much of the atheist view were all started by the individual atheist trying to force his beliefs on the people who do not have atheistic beliefs>>

this statement sounds like twisted logic to me. isn't the point of the relavent lawsuits to be to PREVENT "government" trying to force beliefs on the people who do not have christian beliefs. that is more than just atheists, btw. what beliefs can these lawsuits force on people who "do not have atheistic beliefs"? did any of the lawsuits ever mention outlawing churches, or telling you which ones you can or cannot attend? or whether or what religion anyone can teach their children?

Because for many people sharing their belief is an integral part of their life and they enjoy getting together with like-minded people. If you have a camera club or a chess club or a political club why could you not have a club with people who believe in sharing their feelings and thoughts? Same difference. It is an integral part of their life.

As to the other clubs, there is nothing against them if you want. In fact right now you could probably have them before you could have a religious group getting together. I am sure that the ACLU would be very much up in arms if you tried to stop a Wiccan group but not if you tried to stop a group of religious kids who liked to share their experiences.

>As to the other clubs, there is nothing against them if you

>want.

I don’t think that is correct or even realistic. Can you imagine the uproar from the same folks who advocate a Christian club when they find out that someone at their child’s school has started a Satanic club? Do you HONESTLY think that they would accept it as same thing? Of course they wouldn’t. Their religious beliefs tell them it is an evil thing and there would be protests up the ying-yang.

>In fact right now you could probably have them before

>you could have a religious group getting together. I am sure

>that the ACLU would be very much up in arms if you tried to

>stop a Wiccan group but not if you tried to stop a group of

>religious kids who liked to share their experiences.

I understand that the ACLU is one of bogeymen of conservative mythology, but I don’t get why Doug never pounces on this particular aspect of the political victim mentality.

The ACLU is just an advocacy organization that works within the legal system to ensure that the constitution is followed. Granted, it is their interpretation of the constitution and they are very influential and have extensive resources, but they do not act alone. They bring the lawsuit and the judicial system takes it from there.

Why do conservatives whine about the ACLU so much? Surely there is a conservative equivalent and something tells me you think they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. Is it just because the ACLU is so successful at doing what they do?