Last Minute Maneuvers in Schiavo Case & Santorum

RE: Speaking of Randall Terry...

>Yup... as always, the only correct position is your position.

As always, yes (or at least until proven otherwise) :+

RE: Speaking of Randall Terry...

>I'll post it on a "progressive" blog... no doubt you'll copy

>& paste it here as if it were the Gospel.

No doubt. And it is the "Gospel" until proven otherwise. :+

RE: Speaking of Randall Terry...

At least you finally admit it.

Beliefs aren't facts, though. What may be the right answer in a given situation for me may be the wrong answer for you. I guess maybe that's why I don't claim that you're brainwashed for not agreeing with me. You're entitled to believe what you want & for that to be right for you.

A little reciprocity would be nice, but I know better than to expect it.

RE: Speaking of Randall Terry...

Just once, you might try proving your Gospel, too.

RE: A Quorum of Savages: Notes from the Debate of the Deluded:

Those fools under the capital dome may end up wishing that they had

thought the issue through. It appears that they are out of touch with

just about everyone...

From dailykos.com

GOoPers out of touch

by kos

Mon Mar 21st, 2005 at 09:22:54 PST

Latest polling on the Shiavo case.

ABC News (PDF). 3/20. MoE 4.5% (No trend lines.)

Removal of feeding tube

Support 63

Oppose 28

Federal Intervention

Support 35

Oppose 60

Appropriate for Congress to get involved?

Appropriate 27

Not Appropriate 70

Reason political leaders are trying to keep Shiavo alive

Concern about Shiavo 19

Political Advantage 67

Even among evangelicals, 46 percent support removal of the feeding

tube, as opposed to 44 percent who oppose. Conservatives support

removal of the feeding tube 54-40.

RE: Speaking of Randall Terry...

>Just once, you might try proving your Gospel, too.

You've proven it for me, thanks }(

RE: Speaking of Randall Terry...

>>A little reciprocity would be nice, but I know better than to expect it.

Slow curtain...The End }(

RE: Speaking of Randall Terry...

So, you latch onto something as the truth just because someone you don't like stands in opposition?

RE: Speaking of Randall Terry...

You seem hugely proud of your inability to discuss an issue--any issue--with people who don't agree with you, absent hateful epithets & accusations of brainwashing.

Your thirst for knowledge & truth is veritably overwhelming!

The ONE thing this thread has taught me is that it is pointless to try to engage you in conversation. Your conflicting inferiority & superiority complexes won't permit it. Moreover, what real discussion is to be had with someone suffering from a messianic delusion of being right ALL THE TIME? I had hoped that pointing out the disingenuousness of your repeated accusations and insults might lead to the possibility of you actually considering an opposing viewpoint on a subject and discussing the different facets.

It is clear that you don't want to discuss anything. You just want to copy & paste what others say in a misguided & futile attempt to make yourself seem informed & intelligent.

While I may continue to post my thoughts or even to play the Devil's Advocate & address something from a different angle, I won't try to engage you in meaningful discussion/debate.

Delay a 'slithering snake'

PINELLAS PARK - Angered by the latest political developments in Washington, Michael Schiavo said Saturday that it isn't just the Florida governor who should visit his wife to learn about the case.

Jeb Bush's brother, President Bush, should visit Terri Schiavo, too, he said.

"Come down, President Bush," Schiavo said in a telephone interview. "Come talk to me. Meet my wife. Talk to my wife and see if you get an answer. Ask her to lift her arm to shake your hand. She won't do it."

She won't, Schiavo said, because she can't.

He made a similar offer to the governor last week, saying lawmakers interferring in his wife's life know nothing about the case. So far, Gov. Bush hasn't responded to the offer.

President Bush has indicated he will sign any federal legislation to keep Terri Schiavo alive.

Weary after an emotional visit with his wife, Schiavo said he is astonished that politicians want to interfere in such a private matter.

"Instead of worrying about my wife, who was granted her wishes by the state courts the past seven years, they should worry about the pedophiles killing young girls," Schiavo said, referring to a local case. "Why doesn't Congress worry about people not having health insurance? Or the budget? Let's talk about all the children who don't have homes."

He said U.S. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, who is leading a charge to extend Terri Schiavo's life, is a "little slithering snake" pandering for votes.

RE: A Quorum of Savages: Notes from the Debate of the Deluded:

Judge Whittemore denied the parents' requested relief. Of course, there was an immediate appeal to the 11th Cir.

Contrary to the lunatic ravings of JeffOH & Bucky, the thoughts I've expressed on this issue are driven not by partisan politics, brainwashing, nor a stand against abortion.

- I happen to think that providing food & water is not the same thing as artificial respiration & other medical procedures.

- None of us really knows if Terri will feel the pain of starvation & dehydration. Her brain is working enough to keep her awake & breathing. If the tube is removed, is it so much to ask that she be given something to prevent that pain? Morphine, for example, will actually hasten death in addition to relieving pain; it slows body processes.

- A properly executed Advance Directive would have ended the matter long ago. In the absence of such a document, nobody knows what Terri's wishes were.

- The Federal legislation & legal wrangling on the matter is ridiculous. IF legislation is warranted on such a subject (and I'm not saying it is), it would be a state issue. Just because Congress have the technical authority to confer jurisdiction on district courts doesn't mean they should.

- Give one last PET scan to show all of the deterioration & brain atrophy. Provide pain relief. Pray (or whatever you want to call it) for Michael Schiavo & the Schindlers; they all need it.

RE: A Quorum of Savages: Notes from the Debate of the Deluded:

>Judge Whittemore denied the parents' requested relief. Of

>course, there was an immediate appeal to the 11th Cir.<

The Judge denied emergency relief based upon sound legal reasoning. Last minute Congressional wrangling (which will most likely be overturned) that interferes with established State Statute, is, in itself, a weak legal argument. The appeal to the 11th Circuit will most likely result in an upholding of the lower District Court's ruling.

Leglislation aimed at one specific case, without broadening the scope to a federal level, is weak and irresponsible at best. Courts traditionally rule in favor of preserving their powers, rather than in favor of Congressional directives based little, or loosely upon Constitutional authority. This is exactly as it was intended.

>- I happen to think that providing food & water is not the

>same thing as artificial respiration & other medical

>procedures.<

This is moot, in that State Legislation provides clear Statutory Remedies for the decision, and the decision makers. Redefining the legal standing of the parents at the 24th hour does not negate Florida State Law.

>If the tube is removed, is it so much to ask that she be given something to prevent that pain?<

She will be given, and probably already has, a pain medication to relieve any discomfort.

>A properly executed Advance Directive would have ended the

>matter long ago. In the absence of such a document, nobody

>knows what Terri's wishes were.<

If State Legislation and 10 plus years of legal intervention didn't "end the matter," what leads you to belive that an Advance Directive would? Just ask a Divorce Attorney about Prenuptial Agreements. Everything is open for interpretation.

>- The Federal legislation & legal wrangling on the matter is

>ridiculous.<

And quite possibly a violation of the Constitution.

RE: A Quorum of Savages: Notes from the Debate of the Deluded:

>- None of us really knows if Terri will feel the pain of

>starvation & dehydration. Her brain is working enough to keep

>her awake & breathing. If the tube is removed, is it so much

>to ask that she be given something to prevent that pain?

>Morphine, for example, will actually hasten death in addition

>to relieving pain; it slows body processes.

Do you know that pain medication is not being administered? By and large, doctors and nursing staff are not insensitive ogres would would withhold such medication in such an instance as this. Why do you assume that she is not receiving such medication? Seems like a pretty dumb assumption to make.

>- A properly executed Advance Directive would have ended the

>matter long ago. In the absence of such a document, nobody

>knows what Terri's wishes were.

One could certainly wish that had been the case, but the courts have consistently ruled in this particular case that the spouse is the best person to make decisions in this matter in absence of a living will.

>- The Federal legislation & legal wrangling on the matter is

>ridiculous.

On this we agree.

IF legislation is warranted on such a subject

>(and I'm not saying it is), it would be a state issue. Just

>because Congress have the technical authority to confer

>jurisdiction on district courts doesn't mean they should.

I agree that this is a matter of state jurisdiction.

>- Give one last PET scan to show all of the deterioration &

>brain atrophy. Provide pain relief. Pray (or whatever you

>want to call it) for Michael Schiavo & the Schindlers; they

>all need it.

I always get a laugh out of someone deciding that someone else should have another medical test performed (which is unnecessary and redundant, since previous scans have already shown Terri Schiavo's cerebral cortex has turned to liquid) particularly when they they're not paying for it. If you think this test should be repeated, why not write out a check and send it to Michael with your request?

Yes, Michael as well as the Schindlers could use all the prayers and good wishes people would offer. I feel sorry for all of them, not only because of Terri's plight, but because of the way they're being used and abused for the political gain of others.

RE: Terry Schiavo Must Die:

>I'd buy that, were there a properly executed advance directive.<

So, in the absence of such a Directive, what would you suggest? Should the State Law be respected, and allow the husband to make the decision? If not, what is the answer? Congress?

RE: Speaking of Randall Terry...

>I thought it was relevant to discuss exactly who Terri's

>parents are choosing as a spokesperson for them because I

>believe it's very revealing as to what forces are behind this

>circus. Hardly a "diversionary tactic" because I'm not

>bringing this up to avoid answering a question or to change

>the topic. It was extra information that some people may find

>interesting, if you don't find it interesting, sorry to have

>wasted your time.

The spokesman in this situation is very relevant. When religious agendas enter Congressional and Presidential decision making, the clear spirit and written intent of our Constitution is at stake.

RE: A Quorum of Savages: Notes from the Debate of the Deluded:

>Those fools under the capital dome may end up wishing that they had

thought the issue through. It appears that they are out of touch with

just about everyone...<

I wish that the Democratic Party could actually rally behind this instance, as an inappropriate intrusion by an agenda based Party. Unfortunately, they all stayed at home to avoid actually taking a stand.

When will the Democratic Party pick an issue and stand behind it full force. The "far right" is in control, strictly because weak Democrats have allowed it to happen through their own shameful behavior.

Blog poison

>You seem hugely proud of your inability to discuss an

>issue--any issue--with people who don't agree with you, absent

>hateful epithets & accusations of brainwashing.

That´s a defining attribute of many of the people here. But it´s not just here.

There have been lots of interesting articles lately on exactly the trend you are describing. People are so unwilling and unable to be exposed to views with which they disagree that they seek out places on the Internet - mostly highly partisan blogs - comprised solely of people who agree with them about most everything.

Then, having found their comfortable home, they not only confine themselves exclusively to those self-echoing blogs for ``opinion´´ pieces, but worse, actually use these blogs as their primary source for ``news.´´ As a result, as you point out, anything that bolsters their pre-conceived opinion is ``news,´´ whereas anything that undermines it is dismissed as bias or propganda, or ignored altogether.

I´ve read some people here say how they basically use blogs now as their primary source for news - and the only ones they read (as you can see from the fact that their posts, like those of JeffOH, consist of nothing other than drone-like copying of what they´ve read there) are blogs dominated by those who agree with everything they think. Scary.

The most stimulating and growth-inducing thing to do is to seek out the writings and thoughts of those who (a) are smart and (b) have views as far away as possible from your own, in order to really challenge your own views and force yourself to confront the best possible arguments against what you think.

People, more and more, do the opposite. They want to block out (or caricaturize or distort) any fact or argument that undermines theirs, and instead, seek refuge in those safe places where nobody who disagrees with them can be heard.

RE: Blog poison

I agree. Isn't it amazing that the mass media isn't even posting the actual legislation passed by Congress. Americans are relying on interpretation from others, as a basis for their critique. They are both dangerous.

RE: A Quorum of Savages: Notes from the Debate of the Deluded:

>

>- I happen to think that providing food & water is not the

>same thing as artificial respiration & other medical

>procedures.

Medical experts who have weighed in on this have stated that providing hydration and nutrition by means of a tube when a patient is incapable of swallowing is the same as providing artificial respiration. It is sustaining life by medical means.

>- None of us really knows if Terri will feel the pain of

>starvation & dehydration. Her brain is working enough to keep

>her awake & breathing.

Again, medical experts seem to be unanimous that Mrs Schiavo's brain is not capable of registering pain or other sensations. She is not "awake" but rather in a " sustained vegetative state" and her open eye movements and other expressions are reflex actions. Her breathing and other bodily functions are driven by the part of the brain that is not connected with thinking. We all do these things whether we are awake or unconscious.

If the tube is removed, is it so much

>to ask that she be given something to prevent that pain?

Again , if she is incapable of experiencing pain, there should be no need for pain medication.

A properly executed Advance Directive would have ended the

>matter long ago. In the absence of such a document, nobody

>knows what Terri's wishes were.

The courts in Florida have determined that her husband is expressing her will and, by law, if he is credible, which the courts have determined, then as her husband, his consent to the withdrawal of the feeding tube is legal.

>- The Federal legislation & legal wrangling on the matter is

>ridiculous. IF legislation is warranted on such a subject

>(and I'm not saying it is), it would be a state issue.

There is state legislation and the Florida courts have applied it. The Congress and the President have intervened, hoping to find a judge that would see the matter differently. This was a highly risky strategy and appears to be backfiring.

>- Give one last PET scan to show all of the deterioration &

>brain atrophy

This has been going on for 15 years. Enough is enough.

Pray (or whatever you

>want to call it) for Michael Schiavo & the Schindlers; they

>all need it.

I am concerned that in gun-crazy America, these people will need more than prayers, they will need bodyguards to protect tham against the lunatic fringe which has been whipped up by the reckless behaviour of the Congress and the President who have been driven by crass political considerations.

RE: Terry Schiavo Must Die:

In the absence of an advance directive, you err on the side of caution. Were she on a respirator, I'd say that her next of kin (husband) would make a decision on treatment. I'm not of the opinion, however, that food & water constitute medical treatment. In THIS case, I'd have to go with providing the food & water until she dies of natural causes. It doesn't look like that's going to happen. I'm okay with that, even though I think something ELSE should be done. I genuinely hope that she doesn't suffer.

RE: Terry Schiavo Must Die:

>In THIS case, I'd have to go with providing the food & water until she dies of natural causes. It doesn't look like that's going to happen. I'm okay with that, even though I think something ELSE should be done.<

Providing food and water is clearly a medical treatment. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a surgically implanted tube in the stomach.

As far as "I think," and "I'm O.K. with that" ... that's precisely why we have laws that limit these decisions (presumably) to the family.

RE: Terry Schiavo Must Die:

This will be the very last response I make to anything you post, since you can't stop being an ass after I pulled my Maui availability upon reading about your co-dependent behavior in another forum....

>Providing food and water is clearly a medical treatment.

No, it is the bare minimum of humanity. I wonder if your mother thought she was providing medical treatment when she fed you & gave you something to drink.

RE: A Quorum of Savages: Notes from the Debate of the Deluded:

>Why do you assume that she is not receiving such

>medication? Seems like a pretty dumb assumption to make.

Given the discussion about the horrors of dying from dehydration & starvation, I don't consider it such a dumb assumption. Thanks for taking the cheap pot shot, though. I could have called you stupid for calling for a slander suit against a serving member of Congress for remarks made on the floor, but instead I just pointed out the Constitutional provision that precludes that--without mentioning any opinions I might have on your intelligence.

>On this we agree.

Are you trying to make me commit suicide?

>I always get a laugh out of someone deciding that someone else

>should have another medical test performed (which is

>unnecessary and redundant, since previous scans have already

>shown Terri Schiavo's cerebral cortex has turned to liquid)

>particularly when they they're not paying for it. If you

>think this test should be repeated, why not write out a check

>and send it to Michael with your request?

I'd be happy to, along with an offer to pay for palliative care to render her death painless. An argument from the Schindlers is that Terri never had a PET scan. Fine... show them that even that isn't going to change the very real medical fact that her brain will not recover.

RE: Terry Schiavo Must Die:

>This will be the very last response I make to anything you

>post, since you can't stop being an ass after I pulled my Maui

>availability upon reading about your co-dependent behavior in

>another forum....

Being an ass?? Haven't you accused others of not being able to attack an argument from an itellectual point of view, rather than personal assault? To quote your earlier post regarding JeffOh:

"You seem hugely proud of your inability to discuss an issue--any issue--with people who don't agree with you, absent hateful epithets & accusations of brainwashing.

Your thirst for knowledge & truth is veritably overwhelming!"

Doesn't this sound a little hypocritical on your part? Or perhaps a touch immature? Have you found anything personally directed at you, that was written by me? Maui ... please .... I don't even know you!! Do you think that I lose sleep over anything resembling the situation that you described? OMG. You are scary!

You're concerned about my co-dependency? This needs to enter the escort Hall of Fame. Since when have escorts based penis insertion qualifications on dependency issues. You're "ass for cash" honey. Psychoanalyze that! Please don't presume to know, or even care about who I am.

RE: A Quorum of Savages: Notes from the Debate of the Deluded:

>Again, medical experts seem to be unanimous that Mrs Schiavo's

>brain is not capable of registering pain or other sensations.

>She is not "awake" but rather in a " sustained vegetative

>state" and her open eye movements and other expressions are

>reflex actions. Her breathing and other bodily functions are

>driven by the part of the brain that is not connected with

>thinking. We all do these things whether we are awake or

>unconscious.

I believe it was JeffOH who posted someone else's thoughts in which that person described the horror for Terri to be left with nothing save abject hopelessness. If she can feel some abstract hopelessness, she can feel pain. Regardless, what's the harm in providing pain medication?

>I am concerned that in gun-crazy America, these people will

>need more than prayers, they will need bodyguards

My guess is that her parents won't need such protection.