Was Saddam already a captive before his capture?

Indications Saddam Was Not in Hiding But a Captive

DEBKAfile Special Report

December 14, 2003, 6:55 PM (GMT+02:00)

A number of questions are raised by the incredibly bedraggled, tired and crushed condition of this once savage, dapper and pampered ruler who was discovered in a hole in the ground on Saturday, December 13:

1. The length and state of his hair indicated he had not seen a barber or even had a shampoo for several weeks.

2. The wild state of his beard indicated he had not shaved for the same period

3. The hole dug in the floor of a cellar in a farm compound near Tikrit was primitive indeed – 6ft across and 8ft across with minimal sanitary arrangements - a far cry from his opulent palaces.

4. Saddam looked beaten and hungry.

5. Detained trying to escape were two unidentified men. Left with him were two AK-47 assault guns and a pistol, none of which were used.

6. The hole had only one opening. It was not only camouflaged with mud and bricks – it was blocked. He could not have climbed out without someone on the outside removing the covering.

7. And most important, $750,000 in 100-dollar notes were found with him (a pittance for his captors who expected a $25m reward)– but no communications equipment of any kind, whether cell phone or even a carrier pigeon for contacting the outside world.

According to DEBKAfile analysts, these seven anomalies point to one conclusion:Saddam Hussein was not in hiding; he was a prisoner.

After his last audiotaped message was delivered and aired over al Arabiya TV on Sunday November 16, on the occasion of Ramadan, Saddam was seized, possibly with the connivance of his own men, and held in that hole in Adwar for three weeks or more, which would have accounted for his appearance and condition. Meanwhile, his captors bargained for the $25 m prize the Americans promised for information leading to his capture alive or dead. The negotiations were mediated by Jalal Talabani’s Kurdish PUK militia.

These circumstances would explain the ex-ruler’s docility – described by Lt.Gen. Ricardo Sanchez as “resignation” – in the face of his capture by US forces. He must have regarded them as his rescuers and would have greeted them with relief.

From Gen. Sanchez’s evasive answers to questions on the $25m bounty, it may be inferred that the Americans and Kurds took advantage of the negotiations with Saddam’s abductors to move in close and capture him on their own account, for three reasons:

A. His capture had become a matter of national pride for the Americans. No kudos would have been attached to his handover by a local gang of bounty-seekers or criminals. The country would have been swept anew with rumors that the big hero Saddam was again betrayed by the people he trusted, just as in the war.

B. It was vital to catch his kidnappers unawares so as to make sure Saddam was taken alive. They might well have killed him and demanded the prize for his body. But they made sure he had no means of taking his own life and may have kept him sedated.

C. During the weeks he is presumed to have been in captivity, guerrilla activity declined markedly – especially in the Sunni Triangle towns of Falluja, Ramadi and Balad - while surging outside this flashpoint region – in Mosul in the north and Najef, Nasseriya and Hilla in the south. It was important for the coalition to lay hands on him before the epicenter of the violence turned back towards Baghdad and the center of the Sunni Triangle.

The next thing to watch now is not just where and when Saddam is brought to justice for countless crimes against his people and humanity - Sanchez said his interrogation will take “as long as it takes – but what happens to the insurgency. Will it escalate or gradually die down?

An answer to this, according to DEBKAfile’s counter-terror sources, was received in Washington nine days before Saddam reached US custody.

It came in the form of a disturbing piece of intelligence that the notorious Lebanese terrorist and hostage-taker Imad Mughniyeh, who figures on the most wanted list of 22 men published by the FBI after 9/11, had arrived in southern Iraq and was organizing a new anti-US terror campaign to be launched in March-April 2004, marking the first year of the American invasion.

For the past 21 years, Mughniyeh has waged a war of terror against Americans, whether on behalf of the Hizballah, the Iranian Shiite fundamentalists, al Qaeda or for himself. The Lebanese arch-terrorist represents for the anti-American forces in Iraq an ultimate weapon.

Saddam’s capture will not turn this offensive aside; it may even bring it forward.

For Israel, there are three lessons to be drawn from the dramatic turn of events in Iraq:

First, An enemy must be pursued to the end and if necessary taken captive. The Sharon government’s conduct of an uncertain, wavering war against the Palestinian terror chief Yasser Arafat stands in stark contrast to the way the Americans have fought Saddam and his cohorts in Iraq and which has brought them impressive gains.

Second, Israel must join the US in bracing for the decisive round of violence under preparation by Mughniyeh, an old common enemy from the days of Beirut in the 1980s. Only three weeks ago, DEBKAfile’s military sources reveal, the terrorist mastermind himself was seen in south Lebanon in surveillance of northern Israel in the company of Iranian military officers. With this peril still to be fought, it is meaningless for Israelis to dicker over the Geneva Accord, unilateral steps around the Middle East road map, or even the defensive barrier.

Third, Certain Israeli pundits and even politicians, influenced by opinion in Europe, declared frequently in recent weeks that the Americans had no hope of capturing Saddam Hussein and were therefore bogged down irretrievably in Iraq. The inference was that the Americans erred in embarking on an unwinnable war in Iraq.

This was wide of the mark even before Saddam was brought in. The Americans are in firm control - even though they face a tough new adversary – and the whole purpose of the defeatist argument heard in Israel was to persuade the Sharon government that its position in relation to the Palestinians and Yasser Arafat is as hopeless as that of the Americans in Iraq. Israel’s only choice, according to this argument, is to knuckle under to Palestinian demands and give them what they want. Now that the Iraqi ruler is in American custody, they will have to think again.

hot fucking damn! tree hugging looney bucky is making posts calling for a VERY MUCH MORE hardline stance to be taken by israel! i've gotta get oren in on this one... }(

i knew you weren't completely worthless!

>hot fucking damn! tree hugging looney

>bucky is making posts calling for a VERY MUCH MORE hardline

>stance to be taken by israel! i've gotta get oren in on this

>one... }(

>i knew you weren't completely worthless!

Don't get your little pecker hard too soon, misken. Unlike you, I'm more than willing to share interesting perspectives that I may not agree with in toto. I think the notion that Saddam was being held by folks intending to collect the ransom is interesting. That said, it no way infers that agree with the notion that Israel should take the hard line in the conflict with the Palestinians. Sorry to burst your condom.

"i've gotta get oren in on this one..."

I hope there is not too much red tape involved. If anybody can do it ethan, it is you!

>Don't get your little pecker hard too soon

yes, it is tiny.

It seems very likely that Saddam is a CIA agent now being brought in from the field. Once he reveals the information he has garnered undercover, he will quietly be released into a witness-protection program and allowed to live out his days peacefully in Dearborn Michigan. One of his body doubles will be attacked and killed, with his mutilated face passing for Hussein.

While he may not have been a captive, my bet is they have had him pinpointed for a while, and were waiting for the best media moment. I also think that the Pentagon/White House scripting of the story invites conspiracy theories. You know, the witty rejoinders from the illiterate troops. I bet when the facts come out, we are going to learn that the hole was gassed before Saddam was evicted thus accounting for his disoriented state.

It seems to me you don't give a captive a sidearm, (assuming it was loaded) gas may explain why he didn't use it on himself.

RE:Catholic Cardinal: Compassion for Saddam

Vatican Big: Americans Treated Saddam 'like a beast'

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

VATICAN CITY — A top Vatican cardinal said Tuesday he felt compassion for Saddam Hussein after seeing video pictures in which, the prelate claimed, American forces treated the captured Iraqi leader “like a beast.”

In the first Vatican comment on Saddam’s capture, Cardinal Renato Martino said Saddam should face trial, but he stressed the Church’s opposition to the death penalty.

He told reporters the Vatican hoped Saddam’s arrest would “contribute to the pacification and the democratization of Iraq.”

Martino said he felt “compassion” for Saddam, even if he was a dictator, after seeing images of “this destroyed man” being “treated like a beast, having his teeth checked” by an American military medic.

Martino, president of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, was speaking at a news conference to launch Pope John Paul II’s annual message for the World Day of Peace, which the church celebrates on Jan. 1.

“It seems illusory to hope that it (Saddam’s capture) will repair the drama and damage of the defeat against humanity which war always is,” Martino said, reiterating the Vatican’s deep opposition to the U.S.-led war in Iraq.

Martino said the Vatican hoped Saddam would face trial in “an appropriate place,” but didn’t say whether that should be in Iraqi or before an international court.

RE:Catholic Cardinal: Compassion for Saddam

Yes, having one's teeth checked is a ghastly violation of the Geneva Convention. The Catholic Church just becomes more and more irrelevant every day.

RE:Catholic Cardinal: Compassion for Saddam

>Martino said the Vatican hoped Saddam would face trial in “an

>appropriate place,” but didn’t say whether that should be in

>Iraqi or before an international court.

Perhaps the Congregation of the Holy Office.

RE:Catholic Cardinal: Compassion for Saddam

Good choice. At least as the Holy Office used to be!!

RE:Catholic Cardinal: Compassion for Saddam

given vatican complicity in the Shoah and continued refusal to open up their archives from the period, why should we give credence to their complaints about the treatment of ANYONE???

RE:Catholic Cardinal: Compassion for Saddam

Silly me for suggesting anything so simple - but there is a possibility that Saddam's capture is not the end result of some vast deep seated conspiracy, but is pretty well exactly what it appears to be.

As the old saying goes, if you have a choice between a conspiracy and a stuff-up, go for the stuff-up every time. Frankly, most people aren't bright enough to carry off a large conspiracy, and too many would have to have been involved in this one to let it remain a secret. What's more, they would probably have done rather better in hiding the evidence.

The capture of Saddam Hussein was not a stuff-up, of course, but a long-awaited triumph. I'm betting that the story of his capture is pretty much what we've been told.

Then again, there's all those rumours about the protocols of the elders of Zion.....

RE:Catholic Cardinal: Compassion for Saddam

Well, of course they were checking his teeth! With all those body doubles, the only way to be sure it's really him would be to check his teeth and also take a DNA sample (commonly done by swabbing the inside of the cheek).

I'm not saying he may not have been gassed, but there's another possible explanation for Saddam's dazed state: In news reports here, they've mentioned repeatedly that the electricity had gone out at least a couple of hours before the search party found Saddam. (Blackouts are hardly news in Iraq, of course.) Ventilation in Saddam's hole was by an electric fan, so he was apparently stuck in the dark for several hours in that tiny underground space with no ventilation. He may just have been groggy from lack of oxygen! In which case, he's lucky they found him when they did!

As for the Vatican, they just don't seem to "get" the fact that those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones! At a time when taking a VERY low profile would be a very good course for the Church, given its current state of ill-repute, it insists on making itself foolishly obvious on just about every occasion it can think of. It almost seems like the Church has an organizational death wish! Keep up the good work, guys! Much more of this stuff, and the last shreds of credibility the Church has will have just washed away down the Tiber!

RE:Catholic Cardinal: Compassion for Saddam

>Much more of this stuff, and the last shreds of

>credibility the Church has will have just washed away down the

>Tiber!

Interesting that you think that if the Catholic Church does not endorse keeping human beings in dog kennels and capital punishment it has no future. The funny thing is that its gospel has many more adherents (and an ever growing number around the world) than your eye for an eye savage religion of the Old Testament which can only be defended behind apartheid walls and zionist jack boots.

RE:Catholic Cardinal: Compassion for Saddam

and here we have a perfect example of true colours shining through.

by the way, in the Jewish State--you know, the one you call racist, apartheid,etc.--there is no death penalty. so much for your claims of savagery.

(yes, a special death sentence was handed down ONCE--for eichmann.)

LOL!!! Wow - the capture of Saddam and the resulting widespread universal cheers for the Administration really have the most rabid Bush-haters insane!!!

Now, with nothing else to do, they are resorting to base conspriacy theories. Yeah - that'll get you real far! Good strategy. LOL!!!

Maybe that's not really Saddam - maybe it's Karl Rove in disguise, pretending to be Saddam in order to give Bush an election boost.

Or maybe they decided to capture Saddam now because doing so would help world oil prices, and you know how they do everything driven by secret oil motives.

This is great to see. A real sign of how desperate the anti-war crowd has become. No sense - none at all - that it's a good thing that this vile murderous dictator has been captured and 25 million human beings are finally free from the spectre of three decades of unimaginable brutality. Bush is the Ultimate Evil, and anything that helps him must be condemend and questioned.

The plight of Bush-haters is really quite sad - but nonetheless well-deserved, and super-hilarious to watch!

>LOL!!! Wow - the capture of Saddam and the resulting

>widespread universal cheers for the Administration really have

>the most rabid Bush-haters insane!!!

Dougie:

Are you sure you want to take this position? After all, the article I posted for this thread comes from one of your pal Ethan's favorite Zionist websites.

how do you know what is a favourite of mine?????

>Are you sure you want to take this position? After all, the

>article I posted for this thread comes from one of your pal

>Ethan's favorite Zionist websites.

Unlike you, Bucky, I don't decide whether I agree with a certain opinion based upon whether the person saying it is "on my side." I evaluate an argument on its merits, and agree or disagree with it regardless of who makes the argument. That's called intellectual honesty and integrity - the opposite of being a blindly obedient partisan whore - like the way you were (and are) when you chimed in to agree with Taylor's incomprably stupid "opinion" that being in favor of a war compels one to participate in figthing it.

PREMISE - Taylor = liberal.

CONCLUSION - Therefore, Bucky must agree with everything Taylor says, no matter how fucking retarded.

So I'm not surprised that you would attribute this intellectual whoredom to others, since you are drowning in it yourself.

And, since you raised the issue, anyone who claims that Sharon's "war on the Palestinians" is insufficiently brutal and resolute - as do the individuals whom you quoted - are no political brethren of mine.

>Maybe that's not really Saddam - maybe it's Karl Rove in

>disguise, pretending to be Saddam in order to give Bush an

>election boost.

What an insulting comparison.

Saddam and Rove both despise democratic process and the rule of law. But only one was honest about it.

>>Maybe that's not really Saddam - maybe it's Karl Rove in

>>disguise, pretending to be Saddam in order to give Bush an

>>election boost.

>

>What an insulting comparison.

>

>Saddam and Rove both despise democratic process and the rule

>of law. But only one was honest about it.

When I talk about how repulsive and insane rabid Bush-haters are, and how they are going to drive away everyone but themselves from voting against Bush's re-election by being so repulsive, this is an incomparably potent example of what I'm talking about.

Comparing 30-year, never-elected, murderous dictator Saddam Hussein (favorably) to Karl Rove in terms of how democratic they are . . . . how disgusting.

Keep yapping that sick trap of yours. When you do that, all you achieve is demonstrating your sickness, and immeasurably helping those whom you wish to harm.

They should stick you up at the GOP Convention all 4 nights in prime-time and invite you to speak.

>Comparing 30-year, never-elected, murderous dictator Saddam

>Hussein (favorably) to Karl Rove in terms of how democratic

>they are . . . . how disgusting.

You demonstrated a wicked sarcastic bent in the thread about holding a potential review over an escort’s head in order to “motivate” him. How come you lose all appreciation for sarcasm when it comes to one of your sacred cows? That was really pretty funny.

RE:Catholic Cardinal: Compassion for Saddam

>As the old saying goes, if you have a choice between a

>conspiracy and a stuff-up

Just call me provincial, but would mind translating that into American English? Just what, pray tell, is a “stuff-up.” I can’t even figure it out based on context.