So much for the vacation in Bali ...!

MINISTRY COMES DOWN ON SEX

Performing oral or anal sex will become a crime in Indonesia punishable by up to 12 years in prison.

Sex before marriage and homosexual intercourse will also be outlawed under a moral crackdown by the country's justice ministry.

An amendment to the criminal code will also see extra-marital liaisons punishable by law.

Even 'living in sin' with a partner is to become a crime, with a draft bill proposing two years in jail for those guilty of co-habitation.

A man who impregnates a woman but refuses to marry her could spend a maximum five years in prison.

A sentencing range of three to 12 years would apply to sodomy and oral sex.

Homosexual sex would be liable to punishment of between one and seven years.

"It's still in its early stage. We're still collecting input from various parties and experts," said justice ministry spokesman Sukartono Supangat.

He said ministry experts are still debating ways to obtain evidence of such acts.

The dark art of witchcraft has also attracted the ministry's attention.

A witch doctor or his client found guilty of using black magic to hurt other people could spend up to five years in jail.

Last Updated: 11:06 UK, Monday September 29, 2003

© 2003 BSkyB

Ah, extreme Islam raises its head in yet another spot! But why should Auntie S care? In fact, he's a paid shill for the Palestinian Authority, where being gay gets people killed! So why would it bother him that this is now happening in Indonesia, as well?

(There was a news report the other day about at least 300 Palestinian gay men living underground in Israel to avoid torture or murder at home. Because of the current security situation it's become very difficult for Palestinians to get residence permits in Israel, so if they're caught they're subject to deportation back to Palestinian territory and possible life-threatening consequences. Israeli gay groups are working to help them find refuge abroad and keep them from being deported to Palestinian territory.)

Instead of getting better, it does seem to be turning into an uglier world, at least in many parts of it!

>Ah, extreme Islam raises its head in yet another spot! But

>why should Auntie S care? In fact, he's a paid shill for the

>Palestinian Authority, where being gay gets people killed!

So it only bothers you when they are murdered for being gay as opposed to being Palestinian by the zionist overlords? It is very difficult to assess the human rights practices of a people under military occupation. Let the Israelis return to the Warsaw or Brooklyn, and then we'll be able to adequately judge the institutions in Palestine. The most peculiar fearure, perhaps most revealing feature of the jewish neo-con project is its assault on the most secular of all the Arabs - the Palestinians, the Iraquis, the Syrians and the Lebanese. It kind of makes you wonder if trhe zionists really want peace or a greater Israel?!

>It is

>very difficult to assess the human rights practices of a

>people under military occupation.

In the case of Muslim countriess, it's really not that difficult. In virtually every Muslim or Arab country - Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Talibanized Afghanistan - gay people are either killed or imprisoned. There, you don't have the excuse of "military occupation" to justify this oppression. So what is your excuse for this oppression, Mr. Muslim Apologist? And do you acknowledge that gay people can live openly and freely in Israel?

>And do

>you acknowledge that gay people can live openly and freely in

>Israel?

No, not at all, I have posted on other threads cites to Israeli movies about orthodox treatement of gay jews in Israel and elsewhere, and even suggested a movie for the zionist lobby to review.

The Orthodox aren't what you'd call friendly towards gays, but they don't torture or kill them, so there's hardly a comparison between the way Orthodox Jews treat gays and how Muslim societies treat them. Furthermore, in spite of all the publicity they generate, the Orthodox are still a distinct minority in Israel, which is predominantly a secular society. For secular gays, Israel is a relatively advanced country to live in, with rights and privileges (like survivor pension rights and the ability to serve openly in the military) that gays still don't have in the U.S., for example. And an Orthodox Israeli who is gay at least has the option of choosing to live openly as a gay person in secular Israeli society. S/he may be shunned by family or friends in the Orthodox community, but s/he won't be facing a life-threatening risk, which would be the case in the Muslim world! And I notice that Auntie S isn't running right back to Gaza or Ramallah to publicly proclaim his own proclivities! It's so much comfier to take anti-Semitic potshots from the comfort of the George V or the Plaza-Athenée (paid for, undoubtedly, by unsuspecting Palestinians) than actually live in the Arab "paradise" he so ardently shills for! ;(

And ironically, Muslim societies have traditionally throughout history been far more gay-tolerant than Christian countries. One or two hundred years ago the Middle East was a gay paradise compared with Christian Europe or America. Now.......well, that's a different story.

While we're noting intolerance against gays, let's also not forget Anwar Ibrahim, the former Deputy Prime Minister of Malaysia. Conveniently, Malaysia has laws against sodomy, which made it possible for the Prime Minister to trump up charges against Anwar, his political rival, which now see Anwar languishing in gaol for years to come. The charges against Anwar were absurd, but so is the law under which he was convicted.

Hey, the Catholics haven't been so nice to gays either!

< Hey, the Catholics haven't been so nice to gays either! >

Well, yeah, except unless you're a pedophile priest and/or have "friends" in the Priory. x(

No, the Catholics aren't nice to gays, either. But again, they don't torture or kill them. At least not lately! It's been a while since the Inquisition was a going concern, although the crowd currently running the show at the Vatican certainly shows signs of wanting to reinstitute it, autos-da-fe and all. Let's face it, religious extremists of any kind are dangerous (as well as hateful and disgusting). But some are worse than others; unfortunately it's the Muslim world's turn to be going through that kind of craziness. It's a shame, because it's such a betrayal of the otherwise generous and tolerant spirit that infuses classical Islam! Not to mention the antithesis of the spirit of inquiry and openness that made al-Andalus the center of science and learning it became at its zenith. Sadly, it seems like it's been a long downhill slide for Islam ever since al-Andalus broke up into feuding kingdoms, culminating in the final reconquest in 1492. The Christian world wasn't doing much better, since the Inquisition began soon afterwards, but somehow they managed to pull back in time. But there's nothing really to prevent that intolerant spirit from coming back to haunt us all, and it certainly is rearing its ugly head just about everywhere these days! The Confucian curse has come true, and we've been condemned to live in "interesting times!" ;(

Isn't it interesting that it took you 13 lines to explain why the problem with the orthodox is not really a problem? Interesting too that you focussed on Israel and not elsewhere? How many extra lines would it have taken you to explain that non-problem away? As for the importance of the orthodox in Israeli society, might I suggest you try to drive a car in Jerusalem on Saturday or perhaps take an El Al flight on Saturday. Go on, Trisexual, take as many lines as you need, but please explain how your favorite militaristic theocracatic apartheid state is really a secular paradise?

>And ironically, Muslim societies have traditionally

>throughout history been far more gay-tolerant than Christian

>countries. One or two hundred years ago the Middle East was a

>gay paradise compared with Christian Europe or America.

>Now.......well, that's a different story.

It's different to make these sort of cross-cultural generalizations because what it means to be "gay" may differ across cultures. From Morocco toIran, "gay" really means to be fucked and to suck. It probably still is far more acceptable for the average man to get a blow job or to fuck another man in the Arab or Islamic world than in the Western world or in the zionist entity in Palestine.

We're slightly off track here, but it IS true that Israel is one of the most secular nations on earth. The surveys show conclusively that most Israelis are NOT religious, and that the Orthodox are a very small minority.

The problem in Israel is that it has proportional representation in the Knesset. That means that parties get seats according to the percentage of the vote nationally, not district by district. And that means that there is a host of small political parties, including, incidentally, an Arab party. A couple of the smaller parties are Orthodox. In return for their support on other issues, they demand such absurdities as El Al being forbidden to fly on the sabbath.

Ask most Israelis about these things, and they will agree with you wholeheartedly. For most Israelis the influence of the Orthodox parties on government is unwanted, unwelcome and emphatically not supported. But so long as the Orthodox parties hold the balance of power, the two major parties don't have much choice but to offer these sorts of concessions in return for support on the major issues.

This kind of horsetrading goes on in most countries, but some of the most extreme examples of it are found in Israel.

>This kind of horsetrading goes on in most countries, but some

>of the most extreme examples of it are found in Israel.

So in your secular paradise, you agree that you cannof drive a car in Jerusalem on Saturday or take an El Al flight on Saturday?

>We're slightly off track here, but it IS true that Israel is

>one of the most secular nations on earth.

And how about that "right of return", does it apply also to Palestinian Muslims and Christians in your most secular nation on earth? I won't embarass you by asking about what Ethiopian jews had to go through to acquire citizenship in your secular paradise!

The Catholic Church undoubtedly kills many people when you consider the suicide rate among their members who cannot reconcile their sexuality with the Church's teachings. Of course, many women die in childbirth having babies the Church insisted they have...

And of course, there are all of the AIDS deaths caused by the Church's refusal to sanction condom use...

Yes, I have already said that you can't fly El Al on a Saturday - though last time I was in Jerusalem, there were traffic jams on Saturday, so unless there's been a dramatic change in the last few years, you can drive a car on Saturday.

But you have missed the point. Israel is very much a secular state because the vast majority of the population have no religious leanings at all, moreso than in virtually any western nation. Because of the oddities of the balance of power, however, political horsetrading has resulted in some very public manifestations of the observance of the sabbath - no airliners, no trains, for example.

This does not in any rebut the statement that Israel is a very secular state, because in so many other respects there is little interest in religion or religious observance. Most Israelis spend Saturdays doing what we do: watching TV, visiting friends, having picnics. And most Israelis are not religious. 50% of Americans are in church on Sundays. A very small percentage of Israelis are at the synagogue on the sabbath.

So don't assume that most Israelis are fervent religious Jews. They are not. They are passionate about being Jewish and protecting their Jewish heritage. But that's a cultural and racial issue, not a religious one.

The right of return has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with race and culture. I think you'd better go and look up the definition of "secular" before you respond to this post any more.

As for the Falashas, their existence as Jews was extremely controversial not because they were black but because nobody had ever heard of them until they appeared out of nowhere in the 1970s. Until that time we all thought we knew where the diaspora had gone to after Titus sacked Jerusalem in 69AD. The emergence of black Jews in Ethiopia was a challenge to the whole history of the diaspora to that time.

I'm sure there was an element of racism in this too, because Jews had never previously thought of themselves as possibly being black. But most of the problems the Falashas had to go through was brought about by simple disbelief that a community of black Jews could have lasted for 2,000 years in Ethiopia without anybody having heard of them.

And a final comment. I have never said that Israel was a "secular paradise". What I said was nothing more nor less than Israel is actually not a very religious country at all.

Frankly I wouldn't live in Israel if you paid me, even though I have some good Israeli friends and it's a great place to visit when there isn't a Palestinian uprising going on. It is a very troubled and divided country - many Israelis are dismayed at the aggressive stance of their government, many support the government passionately. Until it can sort out a peaceful accommodation with the Palestinians, I fear it is condemned to a future of ongoing violence and terrorism.

>I'm sure there was an element of racism in this too, because

>Jews had never previously thought of themselves as possibly

>being black. But most of the problems the Falashas had to go

>through was brought about by simple disbelief that a community

>of black Jews could have lasted for 2,000 years in Ethiopia

>without anybody having heard of them.

So am I correct that your defense to the charge that Israel is not a secular paradise is that it a racist paradise instead?

>... though last time I was in Jerusalem, there were

>traffic jams on Saturday, so unless there's been a dramatic

>change in the last few years, you can drive a car on

>Saturday.

Might I suggest that you check your facts with the Chief Rabbi of M4M, Rabbi Trisexual?!

}(

>The right of return has nothing to do with religion and

>everything to do with race and culture. I think you'd better

>go and look up the definition of "secular" before you respond

>to this post any more.

I am not sure I understood whether your answer was in the affirmative or the negative as to the ability of Papestinian Muslims and Christians to return to their homeland under the so-called "right of return" in your secular paradise, err I mean your "not very religious country at all". Care to try again?

Why? I quoted my own experience from a couple of years ago. I said it might have changed in the last few years. Nothing there is inaccurate. I think you'd better stop making wild accusations about other people and actually start learning to READ what they say.

You are a very strange man. You don't actually READ what people say in their posts, and then go and misquote them grotesquely.

The right of return is all to do with being of the Jewish race. You do not need to be a practising religious Jew as well.

As far as I know, it applies only to Jews. I never said otherwise.

Technically, a Jew who was a practising Muslim would be entitled to move to Israel, I believe. But other Muslims who are not Jewish would not be able to.

And yes, that means that the right of return doesn't apply to Palestinians. It should, and until it does I doubt that there will be peace in Israel.

I've never said Israel was a paradise. In fact I said pretty clearly that I wouldn't want to live there and that it was probably doomed to years of terrorism and violence unless it could reach an accommodation with the Palestinians. What I said is a few posts back, from earlier today.

Now, before you post anything else, would you mind actually reading what I've written and stop putting words into my mouth that I never used. If there are hard words like "secular" that you don't understand, I suggest you find a dictionary and look them up. At the moment your posts just make you look bigoted and stupid. Not to mention careless about what others have actually said.

Can something be done about hate filled posters????

>Might I suggest that you check your facts with the Chief Rabbi

>of M4M, Rabbi Trisexual?!

Your comments are disgusting, and you demean the intelligent discourse of political issues on this board.

Dont you realize that you are a faggot and in many muslim countries that is not only a sin but a CRIME?

Yet you keep on rabidly defending the Palestinians who would imprison you because of your sexual behavior.

You sound like a very conflicted individual...are you sure there isn't some Jewish DNA floating around in your genes?

Bash other countries if you like, that is your choice, but do not bash thoughtful and compassionate posters like Trilingual with your snide asides.

Isnt there something the Board of M4Ms can do about such a hate filled poster?